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Wheelset for around 40.000yen? (Stories of the Noob)

130 wheel works fine in steel bike. The chainline will be slightly off - but if you are using older 8 or 9 speed there is no issue. If you plan use the 10 speed spaced freehub, then I suggest getting the frame properly 'cold set' as you need to not just space the drops apart, but actually shift the whole triangle to set the chainline correctly. And after that - drops need to be adjusted perfectly parallel otherwise when you clamp in the QR you will cause rear hub shaft to bend slightly resulting in rapid bearing wear and increased static loading.

Alot happens back there, from an engineering dynamics POV, the more accurate you make the system , the better it will roll and last longer.

Does that mean that I am doing (serious?) damage to my frame and wheels? Or, that I might be faster if I had the frame coldset?

I don't understand why the chain line should be slightly off: is this because in flexing the rear dropouts it is unlikely that both sides will flex the same amount?
 
Ur probably not doing any damage - just things will wear out quicker - especially hub bearings - and shifting may not be optimum because the centerline of the chain is shifted slightly. Plus - your bike may be going down the road like a crab due a few mm offset.

See, the problem with just spreading the rear drops is that you can't get them exactly even - they are different composition, shape, tension, etc. At the builder the frame is 'set' to be perfectly aligned in a neutral state (no tension against the steel).

Also - when you spread them, you naturally sway out the rear dropouts so they are no longer perfectly parallel. This applies uneven force on the axle when you clamp it down, causing it to bow. Even you might think everything back there is 100% rigid - it's really not. Slight axle flexing applies massive increase in static loading asymetrically on the bearing. Most wheels using sealed , cartridge type bearing will suffer this most. One reason why shimano still sticks with loose ball - broader, more tolerant contact surface and they can use thinner hub shell, then.

On the other end of the scale - a bike will pretty much work forever just hacked together - and the cheaper (heavier) the parts, the greater the lifespan. Surprisingly just using cheap, heavy mild steel and clunky loose ball hubs will give you a machine that will work fine for years. But when you start increasing stiffness, losing weight and applying more high technology components, then everything just needs to be fitted to higher tolerance.
Does that mean that I am doing (serious?) damage to my frame and wheels? Or, that I might be faster if I had the frame coldset?

I don't understand why the chain line should be slightly off: is this because in flexing the rear dropouts it is unlikely that both sides will flex the same amount?
 
I have a set of SRAM S60 that I am selling for 40,000 JPY. They have been recently overhauled, bearings, freebody and graphics.

I absoultely love these carbon clinchers with allloy breaking surface but due to sponsor agreements I can no longer use them (These were my racing wheels so got very little km in them)
 
Ur probably not doing any damage - just things will wear out quicker - especially hub bearings - and shifting may not be optimum because the centerline of the chain is shifted slightly. Plus - your bike may be going down the road like a crab due a few mm offset.

See, the problem with just spreading the rear drops is that you can't get them exactly even - they are different composition, shape, tension, etc. At the builder the frame is 'set' to be perfectly aligned in a neutral state (no tension against the steel).

Also - when you spread them, you naturally sway out the rear dropouts so they are no longer perfectly parallel. This applies uneven force on the axle when you clamp it down, causing it to bow. Even you might think everything back there is 100% rigid - it's really not. Slight axle flexing applies massive increase in static loading asymetrically on the bearing. Most wheels using sealed , cartridge type bearing will suffer this most. One reason why shimano still sticks with loose ball - broader, more tolerant contact surface and they can use thinner hub shell, then.

On the other end of the scale - a bike will pretty much work forever just hacked together - and the cheaper (heavier) the parts, the greater the lifespan. Surprisingly just using cheap, heavy mild steel and clunky loose ball hubs will give you a machine that will work fine for years. But when you start increasing stiffness, losing weight and applying more high technology components, then everything just needs to be fitted to higher tolerance.

GSAstuto, thank you for the post - informative and interesting.

I have in the past doubted whether my front and back wheels were in line or not and, in fact, after I read this post I checked my back wheel and it seems that it's not perfectly centred.

Still, I am very pleased with my steed, all things considered!
 
Probably the best all purpose wheels are the Shimano Ultegra 6700. [...] I'd personally lean towards the Ultegra 6700's or our 23mm '2:1' Wheelset or a custom build on the Ultegra Hubs and either 23mm rims or Ambrosio Excelites.

The nice thing about Shimano based wheels is that parts and service are very easy to accomplish. They use loose ball bearings , hard alloys and steel carriers. In short, they last a very long time and are easy to work on. Spokes / lengths are common and easy to obtain. Most are available in 28, 24, 20h builds. For the heavier / duty rider I usually spec just 28h front and rear. Very bombproof.

I've been busily using the skills that pay the bills and have had to forget about wheels for a few days. (Worse, it seems that the coming two or event three weekends are ruined. But I really want to get my antique in reliable condition.

This PDF of Shimano's shows that recommended tyres are 19C to 25C. I've got 25C now but I don't really know why, and guess that for middle or long distances I'd be happier with 28C. Additionally, the front wheel is radially spoked, and Sheldon Brown's commentary on radial spoking suggests no advantage for me, while suggesting a (small) risk.

Positivo Espresso's write-up of "Cycle Mode" mentions hubs for $3000 ha ha ha but also Grand Bois hubs -- retro styling, but modern internals and the convenience of QR skewers. I'm not sold on QR skewers but otherwise this interests me. As I vaguely understand it, "Grand Bois" (GB) is some boutique Kyoto brand name attached to parts made in Taiwan. Googling reveals me that GB brand tyres are lovely but puncture-prone (so no thanks)

As for their rims and hubs, I can't find much about them. This review (Fuji Otaku) waxes lyrical about the rims, but I've no idea what (if anything) most of it means, other than that GB makes rims that are wider than the norm, for wider tyres. Here are the hubs again.

Well, I can cough up the money, but I don't understand enough to know if I'm paying for (a) quality or (b) retro looks, Frenchy name and canny marketing. (And of course, LBS man may say that they're not in his distribution channels.) Any quick comments?
 
I have a set of SRAM S60 that I am selling for 40,000 JPY. They have been recently overhauled, bearings, freebody and graphics.

I absoultely love these carbon clinchers with allloy breaking surface but due to sponsor agreements I can no longer use them (These were my racing wheels so got very little km in them)

James, have you posted your ad to the classifieds? Would love to see some pics.
 
Depends the groupset of your bike - if it's Japanese stuff, then I'd scout out some old Araya rims. If it's Italian stuff, then I'd scout for some NOS Mavic stuff. The GB is quite nice for the price, though I haven't built with any of their rims yet, so I have no opinion either way.

For a bike made before 1985 I think it's an utter shame and travesty to run anything other than tubulars. The bikes I remember using clincher tires in the 80's were the ultra massproduced cheap 3speeds and 10 speeds by Raleigh, Motobecane, Schwinn, Columbia, and others. Typically sold with steel rims and straight gauge 'water pipe' frames. Even my first 'real' 10 speed racing type bike (Nishiki)- made in Japan, actually, came with honest-to-goodness tubular wheels / tires. (Araya / Swallow). Ha! I even have a Swallow training tubular sitting here still! Amazing.


I've been busily using the skills that pay the bills and have had to forget about wheels for a few days. (Worse, it seems that the coming two or event three weekends are ruined. But I really want to get my antique in reliable condition.

This PDF of Shimano's shows that recommended tyres are 19C to 25C. I've got 25C now but I don't really know why, and guess that for middle or long distances I'd be happier with 28C. Additionally, the front wheel is radially spoked, and Sheldon Brown's commentary on radial spoking suggests no advantage for me, while suggesting a (small) risk.

Positivo Espresso's write-up of "Cycle Mode" mentions hubs for $3000 ha ha ha but also Grand Bois hubs -- retro styling, but modern internals and the convenience of QR skewers. I'm not sold on QR skewers but otherwise this interests me. As I vaguely understand it, "Grand Bois" (GB) is some boutique Kyoto brand name attached to parts made in Taiwan. Googling reveals me that GB brand tyres are lovely but puncture-prone (so no thanks)

As for their rims and hubs, I can't find much about them. This review (Fuji Otaku) waxes lyrical about the rims, but I've no idea what (if anything) most of it means, other than that GB makes rims that are wider than the norm, for wider tyres. Here are the hubs again.

Well, I can cough up the money, but I don't understand enough to know if I'm paying for (a) quality or (b) retro looks, Frenchy name and canny marketing. (And of course, LBS man may say that they're not in his distribution channels.) Any quick comments?
 
Thank you for your thoughts, Tim.

Well, ah, the bike was made circa 1986 so I suppose clinchers are historically (?) excusable. The (cantilever) brakes are Dia-Compe and the sprockets are Japanese (but I think not Shimano). It was never intended as a racing bike (front and back, it's got braze-ons for pannier racks as well as cantilever brakes); it has a small "large" chainwheel (48?) and a tiny small one; and I've no intention of going very fast on it. (If I want to go fast, I'll attempt this on my boneshaking Miyata, with its high gearing and mashed-potato [sniff!] Vittoria tubulars.) Though it's no tourer, I'd like to be able to go 200km on it in a day and still be capable of getting up and pottering around the next morning.

(Ah yes, bikes of the past. . . . me, I grew up with steel rims and Simplex derailers. Nostalgic, not!)

PS

The last time I was in LBS, LBS man was worried about matching my ancient sprocket set, etc, to a new rear wheel. I'm willing to change more odds and sods beyond the wheels (particularly as the 4th of my six gears is pretty much unusable), but I draw the line (or want to do so) at changing the chainwheels and cranks so that I can have different teeth for a different chain to run on different sprockets (etc etc). I'm told that the current mechanism can actually handle seven sprockets. LBS man said he'd look into this.

On the way back from work today I popped in to ask.

"I've done my homework!" said LBS man with a smile. "I can't come up with any wheel that's suitable. They do exist, but I can't get them."

Oh.

Yesterday I bought a bike-porn mook whose second feature is 「レストアランドナー」 ("restor[ing a] randonneur", I suppose). Lots of old randonneur and sportif bikes (I infer that the two kinds are different, but have no idea how), prettily restored. Some have lotsa sprockets and wheels that are presumably new. Others have few sprockets and wheels that are unexplained. And maybe the latter examples are just restored for show, not for more than token riding. So I learn nothing (though admittedly I haven't yet summoned the energy needed to read the text).

PPS

Google, google, google. Ah, perhaps I have a screw-in freewheel rather than a freehub cassette, and LBS man noticed this and told me a week ago but it went over my head. I can investigate. If I don't have a cassette I suppose I go buy one. Because then Sheldon Brown writes: 7-speed cassettes fit fine on 8- and 9-speed (and most 10-speed) hubs if you put a 4.5 mm spacer onto the body before the cassette. (Elsewhere I read that this is not true for some or all Dura-Ace hubs. but these would anyway be beyond my budget.) Confirmation for this in this CTC thread and elsewhere. Offhand I don't know if I'm using Shimano HG (or compatible) or Shimano IG (or compatible), but SB also writes With 7-, 9- and 10-speed systems, the sprocket spacing between brands is close enough that it rarely causes any difficulty in practice. . . . unghh, just thinking aloud.
 
@Microcord - this is so silly. You don't have an LBS you have an LBC (Local Bikeshop Can't).

Wheels - no brainer. I have lots of compatible things laying around or can build in a few days. Almost every distributor in Japan (who the lBS purchase from) carry wide variety of rims.

Freebody / Freehub - I have both. And we can even just get some NOS or used from a few places within 10min walk. Freehub is more convenient and an older Shimano 9speed DA would be gorgeous laced up to an Araya rim or Mavic MA40 or Ambrosio Excelite.

You don't have index shifting, so spacing is not a concern. The only small concern is the 125mm vs 130mm rear - and we can 'set' the frame for that.

Anyway - most LBS just want to sell what they have and are familar with and that is the 2011-2012 Shimano and nothing more or less. Real mechanics in Japan are a very rare (and dying, at that) breed. They are idiots who just basically try to follow a factory cookbook diagnosis chart without having any proper base knowledge (like physics, engineering, drafting, machining, welding, materials science, etc). Or they are largely self-taught and again, with minimal, if any, core studies knowledgebase. Kinda like a mail-order atty with no bench experience or endless nights writing writs on behalf of entire team of partner and associate staff.
 
Thanks for more kind words, Tim.

My level of comprehension of Japanese isn't that great, my old knowledge (somewhere in my head) of bikes (and bike vocabulary) poor, my access to this knowledge rusty. LBS man genuinely seems a good bloke, and he certainly has an impressive turnover of high-priced stuff so other people must think he's good. I now suspect some misunderstanding a week ago that led him to think that I really, really wanted to retain an old sprocket set. (I didn't and don't.) And that in turn might have led him to infer that I was a nutball or miser, or anyway a time-waster.

Anyway - most LBS just want to sell what they have and are familar with and that is the 2011-2012 Shimano and nothing more or less.

Yes, I'd guessed as much. (Though actually this particular bloke seems a lot keener on Campagnolo.)

Sheldon Brown's website is excellent. I think (or delude myself) that I understand all written there that's relevant. But it's a lot to keep in my head, I worry that I'll overlook something vital, and I have to choose a bike shop anyway. So I put myself in your hands. Switching to PM. . . .
 
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