weight watchers?

andywood

Maximum Pace
Apr 8, 2008
1,519
1,197
133
Niigata
#1
Two comments that struck a chord with me:

Mob’s:

Cervelo states on their website (Col de la tipping point) that an aerodynamic shape is more important than weight, comapring their R and S models. The aerodynamic model S3 will save you 35 seconds compared to the R3 model.

I too believe that aerodynamics are much more important than weight. Even on hill climbs aeordynamics shouldn’t be overlooked.

And Ludwig’s:

Now how much weight matters is of course also a matter of how much the rider weighs. I weigh rather little, so for me it makes quite a difference, but this need not be the case for everyone.

This is also something I’m very interested. In hill climb races, I can imagine the benefits of a 58kg rider bringing his bike down to say 8kg from 9kg. This is quite a percentage loss in terms of weight. However, when an 80 kg rider does the same, will he or she really notice the difference in carrying 89kg up the hill compared to 88kg?????

So to start a new thread:

  • Are you obsessed with weight?
  • How far will you go to shed the grams?
  • Or do you look for other areas to gain an advantage?
Andy

www.jyonnobitime.com/time
 

FarEast

Maximum Pace
May 25, 2009
5,528
538
193
Yokohama
#2
Too be honest Im not a climber so for me weight in Japanese races are huge factor I need the lightest bike possible to give me every advantage, Last years ETI Ministers Cup was a perfect example.

We got the bike down to JCF regulation weight minimum so that I could keep with the climbers at Shuzenji, then on the final lap ditched all the bottles. It worked as I was able to stay with them till the very end and it all came down to the final up hill sprint, where I was nosed out and came 3rd.

But for UCI races over seas or criteriums Im actually looking to improve the power, off come the NOVATEC Lasser wheels that are crazy light and on go the Mavic or SRAM deep dish wheels, I want aerodynamics and stiffness.

The one weight I am obsessed with is my own weight, training is back on and Im looking to get back down to 75kg but maintain my 1200w sprints.
 
Sep 2, 2009
5
0
0
#3
When I first got my bike, I don't know how much it weighed, but I have upgraded a lot of the parts, and it now weighs 7.7kg (not sure how that sits on the grand scheme of things, but it feels light to me).

I don't really think I would want it to get MUCH lighter than this. Obviously I will change my mind and get all weight obsessed, but this feels just about perfect for me.

As for my body, yeah, I could lose some weight, obviously. I reckon I could knock off 4kg and still feel alright (ie, not like I was getting unhealthy).
 

andywood

Maximum Pace
Apr 8, 2008
1,519
1,197
133
Niigata
#4
James,

I wasn't aware that JBCF imposed a weight limit on bikes. I'm sure they will for the UCI sanctioned races but I've never heard of it for general JBCF races. I've never seen it either. Even for the obvious events like the Tsugaike HC TT.

Certainly the JCA don't care as there is a big media frenzy at Norikura each year to find the lightest bikes which then are showcased in Cycle Sports magazine. If I remember rightly Miyazaki san's bike was 5.5kg (he's probably about 50 kg!)

Also, why don't you consider yourself a climber? At 75kg, with good power and cardiovascular system, you should be able to hang in with the best. Imagine Indurain, not Pantani....

Owen,

Remember the difference between being unhealthy and looking unhealthy! If you cycle the weight off you will be very healthy indeed. But when you go home you will be subject to the ususal "what do they feed you on in Japan!?!" as people perceive you to be a skinny goat!

Andy

www.jyonnobitime.com/time
 

AlanW

Maximum Pace
Jan 30, 2007
1,214
434
103
Tokyo
#5
Andy et al,
An interesting website to play around with is

http://www.analyticcycling.com/ForcesLessWeight_Page.html

I put my figures in for Ryusei and got a 33 sec advantage for a 1kg lighter bike! (all other things being equal) Probably in the real world the gain would be less but for pure hillclimb races, there's got to be an advantage in having a really light bike. It's just physics - you are lifting a mass (increasing its potential energy) using a given power output. The rate at which you can increase the potential energy is your power output minus the losses to friction and air resistance. If these losses don't change significantly (which is true for small variations in speed) then with less mass to lift, you can lift it faster and the rate of energy increase is the same: you go quicker.

If I had unlimited money and space, and I was doing a lot of hillclimb races, I would build a hillclimb bike with ulta light parts, single (very small) front chainring, close-ratio cassette etc but my bike has to do duty in all situations so I don't worry too much about the weight. Those last few grammes of weight saving start to get really expensive, to the point where it's probably cheaper to just buy a whole new bike! So for hillclimb racing I'll stick on my lightest set of wheels, strip off the seat-pack, and go with no bottles/half a bottle, no GPS, nothing but my keys in my jersey pockets and go for it!
But for everyday riding, my bike rides really nicely in its normal trim. I've had more benefit from having a proper fit on the bike than I ever would from being a few grammes lighter, by being comfortable over longer periods, being able to stay tucked down in the drops when fighting the wind/pushing hard, and pedalling efficiently.

<goes back to fiddling with Analytic Cycling>
 

GSAstuto

Maximum Pace
Oct 11, 2009
945
242
103
tokyo
www.roadfixie.com
#6
@Alan - thanks for the link! I was calculating this stuff manually and driving me crazy. My college differential calculus is fading fast! But you are right - 'work' increases exponentially with 'mass' increasing over height lifted. And the amount of 'work' you can perform is based wholly on your power output over time.

The interesting comparison is in mass effects over slope vs. velocity effects over windresistance. Not counting aceleration - I want to see what happens when I take a constant power source and apply it over a series of slopes and just change the mass. And then do the same applying the wind resistance. Then finally a combined curve. One should see that the wind resistance plays larger role on the lesser slopes and mass plays larger role on the steeper. Where they converge is what I'm interested in. Subjectively, I'm faster on my Ti bike than my Alu bike - and even more than my Fe bike namely due to weight. Just a short ride over Otarumi tells me this, given roughly the same conditioning, I could barely hump a 44/20 on the Fe bike, 46/20 on the Alu and 48/17 on the Ti. The jump on the Ti was mainly due to 'what I brung' - but for sure I would be suffering dearly if I tried that on my Fe bike which was pushing 11kg, the Ti bike is less than 8kg - and that's with an uncut mongo Thomson seatpost and heavy Campy clunker front wheel. Once I chop the post and get a decent wheel, plus lose the NJS chain - I get very much into the 7.5kg or less range. Bear in mind , not having a groupset helps :)
 

kpykc

Speeding Up
Jun 13, 2007
804
4
38
38
Tokyo
#7
weight curse

I've been trying to gain some muscle weight for a month now - going to gym 4 times a week and eating more. Result: + ~1kg (from 70 to 71), isn't it kinda slow to go up? I bet I'll be back to 70 after couple of rides in the mountains or interval workouts...

Anyways, time for some chicken pilaf..:)

Oh and I am actually assembling my new bike not with the lightest parts to make it a bit more stable on descents and I really want it to survive longer than super-thin and ultra-light stuff. Am I doint it wrong?
 
Nov 2, 2010
8
0
11
Tatsuno
#8
nother hillclimb time site
Hi all

I'm andy_w's friend Jim in Hyogo-ken.

Interesting discussion!

At 52 kg I should probably worry more about bike weight than most, especially for hillclimbs.

Here's a great link for calculating the effect of weight etc. on hillclimbs. It uses elevation data for several of the courses in Japan, so a better estimate than analytic cycling, which I think just goes on height difference, i.e. assuming a constant gradient.

http://module.jp/tt/1/

Here's the direct link to the TOYO turnpike course

http://module.jp/tt/1/run.html#xdfKd...sgtR6HfnwBkCmo
 
Jan 14, 2007
2,513
212
83
Noda
japanichiban.com
#9
I've been trying to gain some muscle weight for a month now - going to gym 4 times a week and eating more. Result: + ~1kg (from 70 to 71), isn't it kinda slow to go up? I bet I'll be back to 70 after couple of rides in the mountains or interval workouts...

Anyways, time for some chicken pilaf..:)

Oh and I am actually assembling my new bike not with the lightest parts to make it a bit more stable on descents and I really want it to survive longer than super-thin and ultra-light stuff. Am I doint it wrong?
You may have put on 3 or 4kgs of muscle and lost 4 or 5kg of fat?
 

kiwisimon

Maximum Pace
Dec 14, 2006
2,633
450
103
Japan
#10
:cry: This thread is seriously depressing for a rebounding 80 something kilogram, stuck inside cause it's snowing, trying to cut back on his caloric intake forty something year old with a 106km MTB race in just over two months. Oh and I sprained my ankle ice skating and can't even jog at the moment. :cry: Oh to just get under 80 kgs again.
 

WhiteGiant

Maximum Pace
Nov 4, 2006
1,192
240
93
Kita-Ueno
#12
Already...

...started my diet after last week's Hakone climb.
Bought some oatmeal, and I'm off the ice-cream.:cry:
No more (sugar-filled) white bread, and out with the cracker biscuits too :eek:
Have already lost 1kg (down to 71kg) in five days. Looking for a "Kusatsu" race weight of 62kg - ie. 9kg to go!
 

Deej

Maximum Pace
Oct 13, 2007
1,014
134
83
Setagaya
#13
I've been trying to gain some muscle weight for a month now - going to gym 4 times a week and eating more. Result: + ~1kg (from 70 to 71), isn't it kinda slow to go up?
Serguei, you may be what is called a "hard gainer," meaning it is more difficult for you to pack on muscle than it is for others. I am in that category myself. However, you can definitely add muscle with the right combo of exercises, rest and nutrition.

A few years ago, I wanted to see if I could bulk up, and ended up adding about 10kg of muscle. I've since shed more than half of that to be a faster climber.

Things that helped me put on muscle included:

1. Proper form with the weights (and almost exclusively free weights). When I learned a new exercise, I'd always have a trainer teach me exactly how to execute it, and every few weeks would ask a trainer to check my form.

2. Splitting my workouts so I wasn't over-training certain muscle groups. (For example, Mondays could be biceps and triceps, Tuesdays legs, Wednesday rest, Thursday shoulders and back, Friday chest. I'm just throwing those out as a rough example of what spitting is. Many people make the mistake of doing the same exercises every time, several days a week. This prevents the muscles from being able to recover and rebuild.)

3. Drinking whey protein within 30 minutes of each workout, and snarfing down some carbs, too. (This aids recovery and growth. I especially needed the protein because I'm a vegetarian. At the peak of my bulking-up phase, I was drinking protein powder three times a day and supplementing with creatine.)

4. Snacking throughout the day to give the muscles fuel for growth. (I know you said you're eating more.) Apples, granola bars, yoghurt, bananas, nuts, onigiri. I was always hungry and always snacking.

Shoot, you may already know this stuff, but I'm just throwing it out there just in case.

Deej
 

kpykc

Speeding Up
Jun 13, 2007
804
4
38
38
Tokyo
#14
Serguei, you may be what is called a "hard gainer," meaning it is more difficult for you to pack on muscle than it is for others. I am in that category myself. However, you can definitely add muscle with the right combo of exercises, rest and nutrition.

A few years ago, I wanted to see if I could bulk up, and ended up adding about 10kg of muscle. I've since shed more than half of that to be a faster climber.

Things that helped me put on muscle included:
...
Deej
Thanks for the tips, Deej!

I do follow points 1 and 2 strictly (ok, maybe not No2 :eek:), and point 4 as well, but I don't take any supplements or concentrated protein - maybe this is the reason for the slow growth.

I'll try to keep my carbs and protein intake in check - will see how it works out.
 

GSAstuto

Maximum Pace
Oct 11, 2009
945
242
103
tokyo
www.roadfixie.com
#15
I used to wrestle at highschool national and collegiate level (some billion years ago). Battling the muscle v. weight v. fat was always an issue. @Deej - I think you've hit this very close to perfect. Also - remember to keep the HI GI foods minimal at night and reserve them for pre-workout or just slightly post-workout. Too bad we can't get cottage cheese and buttermilk in Japan, cause its one of the best sources of available BCAA. Anyway - I would just add the BCAA to your supplement. Creatine is useful - but I'd suggest it in accord with your peak season timing as it provides a very cyclical effect. Whereas the Whey Protein is just an honest-to-goodness source of protein your muscles need to recover and build.

Also - its not just about mass, its about performance. You want to build the muscles where they count and actually reduce them where they dont. Muscles weigh alot! If you aren't using them - then lose them! So, be careful of excersises that build 'out of scope' musculature.

Go and get tested! Until you have tangible data as a benchmark - its really difficult to know what and how you are improving or changing. The Tokyo Metro Gym does a full stress test and analysis. Include those results into your training plan and set goals accordingly.

Remember - it takes roughly 24hrs for average guy cortisol levels to reduce to 'normal' after a severe workout. That means if you go back out and workout again - you are working under more catabolic condition - this depletes your lean muscle mass and also puts the body into 'fat store' mode! Exactly opposite you want! Its normally recommended to drink at least 500ml isotonic carb solution per hour WHILE you are working out. And then similarly within 1hr of completing your workout. Oh, and get plenty of B supps as well.

I'm off to the gym in a few minutes and here's what I've got packed:

1) Water bottle with 2500mg BCAA supplement and 2 tbsp of Karo Korn Syrup (fructose) and 1 crushed up calc-mg-zn tablet.
2) Tuna Onigiri - my wife makes for me with genmai. Thats my after workout snack.
3) Water bottle with Contrex. Basically just more water w/minerals. Since I'm 50+ I need more calcium and mg supplements to offset natural bone loss.

Training Routine (core):

1) 15min @ 200w warmup cycle.
2) 15min stretch.
3) 3x5 reps barbell shoulder press. Increase weight each rep set.
4) rest 2min stretch
5) 3x5 reps barbell squat press
6) rest 2min stretch
7) 3x5 reps barbell dead lift
8) rest 2min stretch
9) 3x5 reps side lunge (plate)
10) rest 2min stretch
11) 3x5 reps dumbell bench lift (kneel one leg on bench)
12) rest / stretch 10min

Shower, eat my snack, go home. Repeat 3x weekly max.

I'm also shooting for low 60's for Kusatsu - hopefully about 58-60. Currently at 67 (down from 78 when I did Kusatsu last year!)
 

GSAstuto

Maximum Pace
Oct 11, 2009
945
242
103
tokyo
www.roadfixie.com
#16
Oh, by the way - if anyone is interested I'm collecting up some various Titanium 'weight weenie' parts from my mfg to test. These are fairly common (yet silly expensive in Japan) parts that strip up to a 100gr or so off any ride:

1) Boltsets (chainring, derailer pivot, seatpost clamp)
2) Water cage
3) Pedal Axles (if you dont already have Ti axle)
4) QR set

I can also get Ti cogs, casette body and chainrings. Bear in mind Ti does not wear as well as the hardened Alu chainrings or Cro-Mo cogs - but if you're really stripping weight , it counts.
 

andywood

Maximum Pace
Apr 8, 2008
1,519
1,197
133
Niigata
#17
fat Vs. muscle

You may have put on 3 or 4kgs of muscle and lost 4 or 5kg of fat?


The company "Tanita" makes bathroom scales. In the top end range they make some good scales for measuring weight gain/loss relative to fat gain/loss, muscle mass gain/loss etc.

The top of the range ones even break down muscle mass to different parts of the body. I actually tried one out an industrial trade fair. The guy was generally shocked. He said I had the legs of a sumo wrestler and the upper body of a fairy!

I expect they are expensive but gyms usually have a good one or you could even pay regular visits to the local electrical store. If you don't mind taking your shoes and socks off in public!

Andy

www.jyonnobitime.com/time
 

FarEast

Maximum Pace
May 25, 2009
5,528
538
193
Yokohama
#19
You may have put on 3 or 4kgs of muscle and lost 4 or 5kg of fat?


The company "Tanita" makes bathroom scales. In the top end range they make some good scales for measuring weight gain/loss relative to fat gain/loss, muscle mass gain/loss etc.
I have the BC1000 bloody brilliant scale and connects with my Garmin and WKO software.
 
Sep 2, 2009
5
0
0
#20
Gym and POWER!!! related;

In my early 20's I was very much into BMX. I was also into weight training.

I trained in a scummy Sheffield which happened to be frequented by Dorian Yates.

From his wisdom, I learned the following, which you would be wise to follow...

1. Deadlifts are all you need.


2. Deadlifts are all you need.


I tried this, and I agree.

I went from a bunny hop of a foot and a half, to a hop-manual of over a metre. Serious explosive strength.

You don't need to be strong to do it - just push your genetic potential.

The strength of a man doesn't come from his legs, arms or neck... It all comes from your lower back. Make your lower back brutally strong, and you have it.