Tech Ultegra 6800 & DA9000 mix

leicaman

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#1
I popped in to my LBS this morning and they have the new Ultegra 6800 group set on show. It's pretty well priced at ¥81,000. It all looks really nice apart from the chainset. I asked if I could swap out the ultegra chainset and get the DA9000 instead. For 108,000 I can do.
My questions are
1) if you were in my situation, would you go da9000 or the ultegra 6800 chainset ?
2) I would need a bb30 converter. Do you think there would be any problems using the DA9000 with the rest of the ultegra 6800 group set with a bb30 converter?
Thanks
Mark
 

j-sworks

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#3
I popped in to my LBS this morning and they have the new Ultegra 6800 group set on show. It's pretty well priced at ¥81,000. It all looks really nice apart from the chainset. I asked if I could swap out the ultegra chainset and get the DA9000 instead. For 108,000 I can do.
My questions are
1) if you were in my situation, would you go da9000 or the ultegra 6800?
2) I would need a bb30 converter. Do you think there would be any problems using the DA9000 with the rest of the ultegra 6800 group set with a bb30 converter?
Thanks
Mark
(2) I can't speak about the converter, but as they are both shimano and very very close to each other in make and such you should have no issues. For instance I am running Ultegra shifters, rear and front derailleurs, FSA brakes, FSA chain set BB30, and a DA chain, and I've used both 105, and Ultegra cassettes with no issues at all, couldn't even tell the difference.

(1) this will sound contradictory to (2) but I'm a continuity guy and I like to have all the bits matching, full DA or full Ultegra etc, and while as long as you keep it in the family (Shimano in this case) all drivetrain's seem to be mix-ready I feel that a complete drivetrain just works well and looks well. I know others like to mix-and-match but that's not my style. Whether your better off with DA or Ultegra is down to three things in my books, are you happy to spend the money of the prestige and weight savings?, do you just like the look and feel of of DA over Ultegra, and how long do you plan to have this stuff?
- longevity -> they are Shimano top tier components and as such will last a long time
- look and feel -> that's mostly for you to decide, go and ride both and see what you think.
- prestige or "bling" factor -> if when trying to ride both drivetrain's you find yourself making excuses for why DA is better, been before riding them, the you fall into this category. We all do in some regard.

--> value-wise Ultegra wins.

Both are excellent and you'll love them after riding 105 (I think that's what your on?)
 
Jun 6, 2013
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#4
DA9000 chainset will be stiffer than the 6800, but if you're not doing 1000w sprints you might not feel the difference.

BB30 converter - you'd need one for either the DA or 6800, both are a 24mm spindle. Either crank would be exactly the same in terms of interface with the BB, and interface with the rest of the drivetrain components too for that matter.

You're on 105 now? I'd question if 105 to 6800 is worth the jump. Save your 1 yen coins and get the full 9000, especially the important bits like the shifters and crank?
 

Trek DJ

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#5
1) No issue with mixing 6800 and 9000
2) If money is a concern, go with 6800. Functionally 6800 will be 99.99% the perfomance of DA. Longevity wise, if you take of it, both will last equally as long.
3) BB30 adaptor, again no issue. You are using it on the Tarmac Elite right? You may get creaking at times, which is usually the BB30 adaptor sleeve. Solve it with some loctive between the frame and sleeve.
Coolness aside, the only real benefit of the 9000 over 6800 is the FD and brakes. Otherwise the shifting perfomance etc are basically on par. But yeah, I use 9000 except I always prefer Ultegra cassettes as they seem to shift better and arent as noisy. Luckily shimano is shipping stand-alone cassettes starting this week.

Have fun with the new stuff. Its nice.
 

saibot

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#6
Coolness aside, the only real benefit of the 9000 over 6800 is the FD and brakes. Otherwise the shifting perfomance etc are basically on par.
Actually the 6800 got all the nice features from DA9000, including FD and brake design. So from a pure functionality point of view, they will be neck in neck (like you pointed out). The penalty for going 6800 seems to be mainly weight. DA crank might be stiffer like someone mentioned, haven't read any official report that confirm this though. I bet both are plenty stiff compared to your current FSA energy (?) crank leicaman , chasing grams is alway fun though ;-)
 

Trek DJ

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#8
The front FD on the ultegra doesn't have the leverage feature that the DA has, also doesn't have the screw that the 9000 mech and di2 have.
 

saibot

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#9
The front FD on the ultegra doesn't have the leverage feature that the DA has, also doesn't have the screw that the 9000 mech and di2 have.
proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Froad.cc%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fimagecache%2Fpreview_500%2Fimages%2FShimano%2520Ultegra%25206800%2FShimano%2520Ultegra%25206800%2520front%2520mech%2520-%2520packshot.jpg&hash=ab98e27ca18ffd0dd1a0751740b17619

Looks like the same leverage to me. From road.cc:
"
The front derailleur (£37.99 braze-on, £42.99 band-on) has seen a significant change in design. It now features a support bolt, like Di2, that comes into contact with the frame to stiffen things up. The pull arm is much longer, like Dura Ace, to reduce shift effort.
"

I have only seen groupset in a display case at SEO and Y's, have no personal experience with setting it up or riding it, (it's not officially on sale yet, or it wasn't a month back anyway) just going of what I have read. So wont stake my life on it hehe.

I would have a complete Ultega set to be honest with you. No point mix and matching and you know you'll only start upgrading to full DA anyway!
Isn't that the point though ;-)
 

leicaman

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#10
Cheers for the replies guys. Much appreciated. So from a technical point of view there will be no problems mixing the two groups huh. Good to hear. Yeah I heard that the tech from da9000 brakes had been implemented on the 6800. And also the cables are the super smooth slinky ones that da9000 uses. Like Saibot said, the only difference is the weight. My main reason for wanting a da9000 chainset is purely based on looks. I think the ultegra chainset is damned ugly. Looks like it has been pulled out of a bog having been left there over winter. The da9000 chainset looks sooooo much better. All tw other ultegra components look really nice and will hopefully perform very similar to da9000.
I'm currently on 105 with an FSA gossamer pro crank.
 

Trek DJ

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#11
Interesting, I must have misses the bolt on the few ultegra bikes I have built up. The arm lever mech is different though, hard to describe...but again ultegra will be on par or 99% of DA. You surely won't lose races riding ultegra, that's for sure.
 
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saibot

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#12
Interesting, I must have misses the bolt on the few ultegra bikes I have built up. The arm lever mech is different though, hard to describe...but again ultegra will be on par or 99% of DA. You surely won't lose races riding ultegra, that's for sure.
Maybe you are confusing Ultegra 6800 11 speed with 6700? The "old" 6700 don't have long "arm" or the support bolt. While I'm not 100% sure I don't think the 6800 is not on sale yet, since it was just announced this June. Although If you been building up the new 11-speed ultegra then you definitely know for sure about the construction from firsthand experience and I stand corrected. But from everything I've read, all the DA9000 new innovations has trickled down to the new 11 speed 6800.
 
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FarEast

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#14
Think of the poor bike, if you buy the DA cranks every morning you'll get the bike out ready to ride and the first thing you'll think is "Why the hell didn't I buy full Dura Ace 9000 to start with?"

The poor bike will have a complex, feeling she is not good enough.
 

msen

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Aug 27, 2011
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#16
Maybe you are confusing Ultegra 6800 11 speed with 6700? The "old" 6700 don't have long "arm" or the support bolt. While I'm not 100% sure I don't think the 6800 is not on sale yet, since it was just announced this June. Although If you been building up the new 11-speed ultegra then you definitely know for sure about the construction from firsthand experience and I stand corrected. But from everything I've read, all the DA9000 new innovations has trickled down to the new 11 speed 6800.

I've just put 6800 on my new commuting bike I have built up in the past few weeks. Confirm what saibot says, its does have the long arm and the support bolt. Have a look at http://si.shimano.com/php/download.php?file=pdf/dm/DM-FD0002-03-ENG.pdf it covers both the new 6800 and the 9000 FD. Everything except the convertor is pretty much the same. Leicaman, I got mine for 70k from http://www.mapsports.jp/ but also have a look here for Shimano stuff http://www.net-bicycle.jp/

I've never tried DA9000/9070 but I run Sram Red on my other bike and the 6800 is a million times better in terms of shifting and much quieter / smoother. When I can justify the spend of upgrading the Sram Red bike to DA9000/9070 I definitely will ( I still like the sram doubletap shifter though but thats another discussion )

Purely personal preference is not to mix and match - far too many former years of upgrading XT with an XTR rear mech / cranks simply because they are bit everybody looks at :) but from a technical point of view i see nothing stopping you.

Mark
 
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joewein

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#17
Buy best you can possibly afford. Sound buying advice for bicycles and computers.
As someone who has been using computers professionally since 1982, I strongly disagree.

If it's a tool for work that doesn't quickly become obsolete (say if you work as a carpenter or mechanic) then your advice absolutely makes sense. Same if top end performance is critical to your success, such as bike racing or high-end number crunching/image processing in computing.

In most other cases, buying good quality, mid range that offers value for money makes far more sense. It's not just because of the truth behind the saying "leading edge is bleeding edge" (the sexy new stuff not only costs more, it also often doesn't have the kinks worked out yet).

For the first computer I bought personally after becoming a software developer I did as you suggested, but later on the amount of money I had sunk into it probably only kept me from replacing it sooner, when technology had already moved on. Buying high end does not defeat obsolescence, it only makes it more painful to your wallet. No matter what computer you buy, in a way it's always going to be obsolete within a month of leaving the shop.

For many years now I have been buying mid-range computers that offer good value for money and only upgraded parts that would have made them obsolete sooner (such as hard disks and RAM) and got solid performance out of them without spending money that I could have put to better use elsewhere. I wouldn't actually benefit much from faster CPUs or high end graphics cards, because my apps don't require them, but often I could benefit from n+1, i.e. having a couple of cheap test machines around. So spend your money where it really makes a difference.

I'd say that 99% of us would not significantly benefit from switching from Tiagra or 105 to DuraAce, other than for feel good/bling value, even if money was no object. I even doubt it would encourage us to ride that much more, because often work and family life severely limit how much time we can spend on the bike anyway.

If you want better performance as a hobby cyclist, invest in your legs (i.e. ride more) rather than in your bike (i.e. working more hours to pay for an upgrade).
 

kiwisimon

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#19
Joe, I think in terms of speed and memory it is always better to buy as much as you can afford cause it's cheaper in the long road as incremental upgrades cost more. Buying a 8GB ipod and then having to buy another one as you have run out of memory isn't cost efficient. Likewsie piecemeal upgrades of bicycle components is more expensive than buying the groupset outright. Your right about the biggest performance gains are at the motor but I don't think even an average cyclist wouldn't notice the performance difference between the lower and higher groupsets. But I ride SS so YMMV. cheers.
 

leicaman

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#20
After breaking a spoke on my ride out to Nagano on Thursday, I dropped in to see Eric at GSAstuto. He very kindly put a new one in and while doing so, converted my wheels to 11 speed compatible. This means I can now go for either 6800 or 9000. I'm very tempted to run the 9000 crank and 6800 the rest. I was thinking of getting the 9000 crank first, then saving up for the rest of the 6800. Has anybody run 9000 with 10 speed? I have read I the web that some peoe have done exactly this but was wondering if anyone here has done the same. I know I should probably wait until I can afford it all at once but that shiny 9000 crank is just too appealing.