Race time trial japan stage 6 final

Sikochi

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#21
Going back to Enosan's comment about helicopter blades, what I was reading seemed to suggest that 2/3/4 spoles are design dependant, so they aren't automatically better, it depends on the shape. I've read reports of people complaining about the handling of HED trispokes, but equally many reports saying they aren't a problem, but they are universally described as uncompromising, i.e. harsh, but that doesn't matter if you are only riding for 15mins tops. It's hard to say what is the best front wheel, as wheel performance is highly dependant on the tyre used - so what tests well with a conti GP4000S 2 might test badly with a Vittoria (for example). And there is also a thread on weightweenies/slowtwitch arguing that standard wind tunnel protocol's are flawed in terms of bicycles. Also, wind tunnels don't account for rotational effects i.e watts to spin which is where 2/3/4 spokes and disc wheels really win out.

As I said, I'm perfectly happy with my Swiss Side Hadrons (62.5mm), but they have the aluminium rim plus carbon fairing, which they don't make any more, and i got them on their introductory pricing offer. For all out speed, i think i would come down on the side of a trispoke, but as regards the HEDs, you need to run a narrow tyre (i think 20mm) to optimize their performance. The version they came out with a while back is wider, so you could run wider tyres on those.

I would probably focus more on what type of tyre you plan to run, including width, type of brake track you want and then narrow it down from there. I think these days, aero performance among most brands is pretty much a wash - e.g. if you look at frames, there hasn't been an improvement since the Cervelo P4 came out 10 years ago, and also, that is why the Speed Concept hasn't been updated, as they can't significantly improve on it. So saying all that, yes, those Planet X ones do look a bargain - i think again that if you browse timetrialling forum, you will find reviews/opinions on them.

As regards TT setups, this video was interesting if you haven't caught it, and is also assuming for the unintended puncturing of Sky's marginal gains.
 

andywood

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#22
Very informative as always!

Yes it seems the blade design is important. And there is a lot of copying going on. A quick search on yahoo auction and you can see an expensive mavic trispoke next to a copy. But the angles on the blades are slightly different.

These kind of tri spokes go for about 30,000 yen and are found in high availability on ebay and even amazon.jp

Another thing to consider is the quality of the hub. My friend just bought a FFW rear disc from Probikekit for 90,000 yen. A very good price. But according to Enosan the quality of the hub is very poor. (there is also no braking track!)

So for your aerodynamic benefits, your wheel is probably slower than a standard Gokiso 50mm.

Here is Goro san choosing Gokiso for his ride at Fuji Speedway.

1537653676903.png

My only experience of Selcof is in seat posts! So no idea of the quality really.... So yes, best to do a bit of research.

In terms of tyres, I'm running Continental Podium TT 22mm front and rear, Though I bought a 25mm which I plan to experiment with on the back.

But yeah, I'll do a bit more research.

One more picture of winner Kouno san rocking a tri spoke.

1537653981921.png

It's difficult to beat someone who is so small, with such powerful legs and a wonderful fit on his bike!

Yes, I saw the video. It was the Sky bit which made me decide to get some of these (plus the fact that my rear wheel came out on the second crash)

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/jp/ja/halo-hex-key-スキュワーセット/rp-prod26621

I chose the gold colour obviously!

Right, time to ride!

Andy
 
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Sikochi

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#23
I just looked at those Gokiso 50mm...447,000 plus tax...er...pass. As before, personally, I wouldn't want to ride carbon wheels, unless i had disc brakes, which i don't (been reading AA Milne to the young one too much - is that possible?), and have no plan on getting.

A P3...i was planning on a P2 (same frame/different fork), but the deal on the Cannondale Slice was too great to pass up, and for various reasons, it might work out as the best choice.

For tyres, remember that stated width is not necessarily equal to actual width, and anyway, it is the measured width once installed that counts, and that is dependant on the inner rim width. It's likely that a 22mm would measure around 24mm when installed, so you would need to look at a 25 or 26mm external width rim for optimum aero (i think you can find sites that work this stuff out). Remembering of course, the above Josh Poertner's rule of thumb, that the rim should be 105% of the tyre.

As standard, I run 23 front and 25 rear. For a race, I just put on the Continental TTs (as far as i want to go in the .crr/puncture resistance equation) and put in latex tubes. For the rear, aero isn't as important, so you could probably just run it anyway on your wheel. But don't forget, that .crr only goes down for wider tyres if you keep the same pressure.

As for Kouno-san, actually his position doesn't look all that good (too high/too cramped), but at the end of the day, it is how the position translates into .CdA
i think this is the kinda current slowtwitch approved position, but then it was used on the track, and whether you would have enough visibility in such a position to ride on the road, I don't know. You can see how the tail of the helmet flows into the back (the head/helmet doesn't stick up above the line of the back), the greater reach and as a result, the space between the knees and the armpads that Kouno-san doesn't have.

 

andywood

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#24
I was given some Gokisos to try last year. The rim and spokes are standard fare but it is the hub technolgy they are pushing. There is a weight penalty that goes with it though. So without some impartial testing it's difficult to say...

The only time I've felt uncomfortable with carbon rims and rim brakes on the road bike was in the pouring rain at Niseko two years ago, where one of the decents touches 90kph....

On the Trek TT bike the cantilever type aero shielded brakes have very poor stopping power. Bit of a joke really. What's the brake set up on the Slice?

As for tyres, I'm running tubulars. I don't know the rim width on the TT wheels. A quick internet search for Zipp 808s suggests 27.5mm, but I'll get Enosan to take a look.

As for Kouno san's position, it looks quite similar to Dumoulins old position (2014).

images (59).jpeg

Dumoulin's new position is, I guess, closer to the track photo. Certainly there is a trend to stack the aerobars high up on the handlebars recently.

But note the arms are still set at 90 degrees.

images (60).jpeg

My position is limited somewhat by the undersized frame that I inherited. Knees kissing the elbows! Seat pillar above the minimum insert line!

_20180925_211748.JPG

I may tweak the position with a different aerobar as there are a few options available.

https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/...ger-speed-concept-mono-bar-extension/p/11862/

But long term I'd like a 58 (this is a 54!)

Anyway, thanks for the input. Always appreciated. A work in progress is what keeps things interesting!

Looking forward to seeing pictures of the new bike!

Andy
 
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WattsUp

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#25
Andy, what Aerobar would you recommend for someone that would use it 99% of the time simply to change positions during indoor training, plus at least one outdoor use (my brother-in-law, his friend and myself are doing a three-person TT in December - I don't have any real plan to do TTs beyond that, although I'm short and stocky so maybe I'd be ok at it on flat courses...)

I have a Giant Contend with 31.8mm handlebars.
 
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andywood

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#26
Andy, what Aerobar would you recommend for someone that would use it 99% of the time simply to change positions during indoor training, plus at least one outdoor use (my brother-in-law, his friend and myself are doing a three-person TT in December - I don't have any real plan to do TTs beyond that, although I'm short and stocky so maybe I'd be ok at it on flat courses...)

I have a Giant Contend with 31.8mm handlebars.
On my road bike I use Syntace C3. I like these because the pads are relatively low down. You can also move the pads in and out depending on your shoulder width. And angle the bars up and down (from parallel to the floor) for your preferred angle (I change this depending on the event, short TT or long ride).

https://www.bike24.com/p26550.html

However, I don't reeally have anything to compare these too (other than my Trek specific TT set up) so there maybe more adjustable and cheaper options out there...


I guess you are doing the Bosso Grand Prix.... I'm thinking about it...

Andy
 

Sikochi

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#27
Going back to Kouno-San, if you compare his picture with Rohan Dennis from yesterday's world's ITT (many trispokes being used!), you can clearly see the difference: his head is lower than the 'hump' of his back, and if you take a line between his hips and his shoulders, the angle is way shallower.



As for your position, yes, I appreciate you are somewhat hampered by being on a bike that is slightly too small. Stretching you out could be a bit dangerous with the amount of weight that would then put over the front wheel. Is there a Japanese equivalent of timetrialling forum where you might be able to find someone who wants to swap a frame that is slightly too large for them? From the picture you posted, i would say your seat is a bit too high, given the amount of leg extension you have. It's really hard to post a picture, as you have to find someone with a decent fit, and then a picture of them at the bottom of the pedal stroke. We had the discussion about shorter cranks before, and that would solve that issue. Here's an article on saddle height. Addition: I found an old picture of Dennis, and you can see his max extension.

 

Sikochi

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#28
Back to the Slice: it has standard direct mount brakes (not discs..hurray!), though the rear is on the seat tube. The design of the seat stays means you couldn't attach a brake there. I think it has been decided that all these fancy hidden brakes don't actually make much difference aero wise, and when you add in the trade off in braking power (like you mentioned) you could actually end up slower, when you factor in brake time, assuming you can even stop ;). To explain, my plan was to buy an entry-level bike that had the potential to be upgraded to a super bike if I wanted e.g. Cervelo P2 (don't want to feel like I'm riding a bike that is holding me back), so originally i didn't pay attention to the Slice, but i noted Cannondale were selling them off, so checked further. In smaller sizes, i think the delta between bikes decreases (it's not a good picture below - the cabling looks shocking - but you can see that in a 48, you can't really deepen the head tube/downtube junction), and in the real world, the Slice has held up (some female riders set race records on the Hi-Mod version), and I can't find anything other than positive reviews. I think outside of the wind tunnel, there is a lot to be said for narrow, low surface area frames.

The courses round here have a lot of climbing e.g. Ainan around 500m, Muroto 1,000 m in the 40km, so being the lightest TT bike, the Slice should score well here, handling should be fine with the low surface area - 10% descents with hairpins, multiple turnarounds - and also, it should handle like a (non hi-mod) Supersix, which is the same as the CAAD9, so I think potentially, it could work out as fast as anything else (I could be wrong here!). Additionally, when out training, I think the low surface area will be a bonus when dealing with the ubiquitous passing 4x4 dump trucks. After 8/9 years, I still love my CAAD9. Anyway, Y's road were selling it a 50% off retail (that's less than BuyChari charge), and at that price it is 75,000 yen cheaper than a Canyon would cost or 110,000 less than a P2. And with the price difference, I can go for a full tririg front end like the bottom bike, which would make it way faster than a stock P2 (excluding second-hand).



 
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Sikochi

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#29
I'd recommend a Profile Design. Here is an article explaining the range; choose which shape you like. They offer both aluminium and carbon versions, so you can choose which version you like. Ideally, you need to work out what stack you want first, as if the bars are too tall, you won't be able to get into a good position, so I would put the bike on the trainer, lie with the forearms on the handlebars, and try and imagine where you would like your arms to go. From there you can get an idea for pad stack/reach and check which extensions would allow you to achieve those co-ordinates. Be aware, that you might need to undermount the extensions, and if so, check that you can do that with the extensions you plan to buy. (I have T5 and can undermount them, but even then, the stack is too high for me on the road bike to get into an optimal position - the Slice gives me 30mm less stack than the CAAD9). Also, an aero position can result in your knees coming up into your stomach, which impacts on your breathing, so you might want to think about shorter cranks as well.
 

andywood

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#30
Going back to Kouno-San, if you compare his picture with Rohan Dennis from yesterday's world's ITT (many trispokes being used!), you can clearly see the difference: his head is lower than the 'hump' of his back, and if you take a line between his hips and his shoulders, the angle is way shallower.



As for your position, yes, I appreciate you are somewhat hampered by being on a bike that is slightly too small. Stretching you out could be a bit dangerous with the amount of weight that would then put over the front wheel. Is there a Japanese equivalent of timetrialling forum where you might be able to find someone who wants to swap a frame that is slightly too large for them? From the picture you posted, i would say your seat is a bit too high, given the amount of leg extension you have. It's really hard to post a picture, as you have to find someone with a decent fit, and then a picture of them at the bottom of the pedal stroke. We had the discussion about shorter cranks before, and that would solve that issue. Here's an article on saddle height. Addition: I found an old picture of Dennis, and you can see his max extension.

Yes, I was watching the TT with interest yesterday. It is definitely the trend to get the head lower than the top of the back.

Compared to say Cancellara from a few years back.

images (61).jpeg

Like you say, for me on this bike, it would involve stretching out over the front of the bike.

I think it would be difficult to find a bike with a long enough top tube in Japan. If it was a road bike, I could just buy a bigger frame. But all the parts (cockpit, brakes, seat post etc) are Trek Speed Concept specific.

And I'm also on the lookout for a track bike at the moment, so that will take preference...

As for saddle height, I think it's okay. Not sure I have any 6 o'clock shots, but these are close.

_20180927_235048.JPG

_20180927_235129.JPG

But there is no harm in jumping on the bike fit rig in the shop. And having another look. As winter approaches, it's the best time to experiment with position.

The only problem with shorter cranks, assuming saddle height is good now, is that it would involve raising the saddle higher still...

But yes, I'll maybe play with position a little this winter.

I also plan to focus a bit more on gym work this winter and see if I can build up some more strength.

Trying different things and experimenting is what maked it all interesting.

Thanks for the input as always.

Andy
 
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andywood

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#31
Back to the Slice: it has standard direct mount brakes (not discs..hurray!), though the rear is on the seat tube. The design of the seat stays means you couldn't attach a brake there. I think it has been decided that all these fancy hidden brakes don't actually make much difference aero wise, and when you add in the trade off in braking power (like you mentioned) you could actually end up slower, when you factor in brake time, assuming you can even stop ;). To explain, my plan was to buy an entry-level bike that had the potential to be upgraded to a super bike if I wanted e.g. Cervelo P2 (don't want to feel like I'm riding a bike that is holding me back), so originally i didn't pay attention to the Slice, but i noted Cannondale were selling them off, so checked further. In smaller sizes, i think the delta between bikes decreases (it's not a good picture below - the cabling looks shocking - but you can see that in a 48, you can't really deepen the head tube/downtube junction), and in the real world, the Slice has held up (some female riders set race records on the Hi-Mod version), and I can't find anything other than positive reviews. I think outside of the wind tunnel, there is a lot to be said for narrow, low surface area frames.

The courses round here have a lot of climbing e.g. Ainan around 500m, Muroto 1,000 m in the 40km, so being the lightest TT bike, the Slice should score well here, handling should be fine with the low surface area - 10% descents with hairpins, multiple turnarounds - and also, it should handle like a (non hi-mod) Supersix, which is the same as the CAAD9, so I think potentially, it could work out as fast as anything else (I could be wrong here!). Additionally, when out training, I think the low surface area will be a bonus when dealing with the ubiquitous passing 4x4 dump trucks. After 8/9 years, I still love my CAAD9. Anyway, Y's road were selling it a 50% off retail (that's less than BuyChari charge), and at that price it is 75,000 yen cheaper than a Canyon would cost or 110,000 less than a P2. And with the price difference, I can go for a full tririg front end like the bottom bike, which would make it way faster than a stock P2 (excluding second-hand).



The only thing to add is does it come with Di2 shifting?

I upgraded with the insurance money from a crash and really appreciate the benefits of electronic shifting on the TT bike (I still feel I can live without it on the road bike).

Andy
 

Sikochi

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#32
With TT position, it is always a trade off between watts and drag to get the best W/CdA figure, so it could be that Cancellara's position was the optimum for him. Certainly with his 'motor' he didn't need to optimise his position!

Yes, the above shots look better re:leg extension. I'd forgotten the raise saddle part of shorter cranks...oops! I will shorten the cranks on the Slice and go with 160 mm - shimano now offer that option in 105 (7000), but Y's road wanted 3 man to do it as part of the purchase...huh!!!

One more thing springs to mind, moving the sensor (assuming its not a timing chip) to the rear wheel (I know it's a pain with a disc) would be marginally more efficient.

Position wise, I think i would try raising the arms/hands as my first move (see the above photos) and don't forget to do your Chung Method testing!
 

Sikochi

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#33
The only thing to add is does it come with Di2 shifting?
Not at that price! It comes with 105, sadly 5800 and not the new 7000. I figure i will give it a try, see what i think, and if I am not happy with it, consider Di2. Again, getting the bike so cheap, allows that option. I could always swap the D(U)i2 on the road bike over if I decide i will ride the Slice more than the CAAD 9. Rear shifting wise, manual doesn't bother me, but i hate manual front shifting - I actually find front shifting easier on the hybrid with bar shifters, than i do on a road bike.
 

andywood

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#34
With TT position, it is always a trade off between watts and drag to get the best W/CdA figure, so it could be that Cancellara's position was the optimum for him. Certainly with his 'motor' he didn't need to optimise his position!

Yes, the above shots look better re:leg extension. I'd forgotten the raise saddle part of shorter cranks...oops! I will shorten the cranks on the Slice and go with 160 mm - shimano now offer that option in 105 (7000), but Y's road wanted 3 man to do it as part of the purchase...huh!!!

One more thing springs to mind, moving the sensor (assuming its not a timing chip) to the rear wheel (I know it's a pain with a disc) would be marginally more efficient.

Position wise, I think i would try raising the arms/hands as my first move (see the above photos) and don't forget to do your Chung Method testing!
That is a timing chip. I sometimes fix it on to the inside of the fork. But I don't know if it makes any difference.

At first I was racing without a speed sensor. But I found GPS to be too inaccurate for pacing. Trek have the option of speed/cadence sensors inserted into the chainstay. But for now I just use a Garmin sensor on the front wheel hub...

Andy
 

andywood

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#35
Not at that price! It comes with 105, sadly 5800 and not the new 7000. I figure i will give it a try, see what i think, and if I am not happy with it, consider Di2. Again, getting the bike so cheap, allows that option. I could always swap the D(U)i2 on the road bike over if I decide i will ride the Slice more than the CAAD 9. Rear shifting wise, manual doesn't bother me, but i hate manual front shifting - I actually find front shifting easier on the hybrid with bar shifters, than i do on a road bike.
Does it have shifters on the aerobar ends? Originally I had old style index shifters, so Di2 makes a big difference.

Andy
 

Sikochi

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#36
It has MicroShift bar-end Carbon shifters on the front end. Apparently, some people prefer them to the Dura Ace ones, and i think Felt spec them as standard ahead of the Dura Ace ones. What they are like, I have no idea. I need to try it all first, and then work out what i want to do, as on the road bike i have 36cm bars which are fine for me, but a 36cm basebar (no drops) for descending doesn't seem like a good idea. Partly as well, there is no-one around here that i would trust with a fitting, so I have been estimating required stack/reach from my CAAD9. Hence, I will get the bike and see what I think of the front end/achievable position before taking the next step - I'm not expecting great things. I think the Trek front end is rated as one of the best around. Our computer downstairs uses the TV as the monitor, and i often pedal on the trainer while watching amazon, so it is easy to link up the camera and get real-time feedback of my position. Again, getting the bike so cheap leaves a lot of room to play there.

PS: I prefer the white helmet, as the black one makes me think of Predator



Or alien

 
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andywood

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#37
It has MicroShift bar-end Carbon shifters on the front end. Apparently, some people prefer them to the Dura Ace ones, and i think Felt spec them as standard ahead of the Dura Ace ones. What they are like, I have no idea. I need to try it all first, and then work out what i want to do, as on the road bike i have 36cm bars which are fine for me, but a 36cm basebar (no drops) for descending doesn't seem like a good idea. Partly as well, there is no-one around here that i would trust with a fitting, so I have been estimating required stack/reach from my CAAD9. Hence, I will get the bike and see what I think of the front end/achievable position before taking the next step - I'm not expecting great things. I think the Trek front end is rated as one of the best around. Our computer downstairs uses the TV as the monitor, and i often pedal on the trainer while watching amazon, so it is easy to link up the camera and get real-time feedback of my position. Again, getting the bike so cheap leaves a lot of room to play there.

PS: I prefer the white helmet, as the black one makes me think of Predator



Or alien

The white one is based on the one Luke Skywalker used to blow up the Deathstar.

images (62).jpeg

The only disadvantage of the visor is that it emphasises all internal noises so the Darth Vaderesque breathing can be a bit offputting...

Andy
 

andywood

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#38
I did a bit of helmet testing this summer.


The black and white performed similarly in my simple test. Need to get out there and test them properly!

Andy
 

Sikochi

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#39
For helmets, slowtwitch orthodoxy says "Helmet: Giro Advantage 2 or Bell Javelin (on a budget); Giro Aerohead (budget permitting)". I can't access your facebook link from here - blocking software - will have to look another time.

The white one is based on the one Luke Skywalker used to blow up the Deathstar.
Do you get to hear any other sounds when riding..e.g. trying to catch someone but failing...'the force is strong on this one'

I should stop before i go any further...
 

andywood

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#40
For helmets, slowtwitch orthodoxy says "Helmet: Giro Advantage 2 or Bell Javelin (on a budget); Giro Aerohead (budget permitting)". I can't access your facebook link from here - blocking software - will have to look another time.



Do you get to hear any other sounds when riding..e.g. trying to catch someone but failing...'the force is strong on this one'

I should stop before i go any further...
I do find myself "talking to myself" as I approach my upper limit in a TT. One of the few times I actually swear!

I did some more testing yesterday.

Road bike

rps20180929_063449_714.jpg

versus TT bike

rps20180929_063532_453.jpg

for a 200m and 400m TT I'll do on the track today.

The methods of execution are completely different.

Mostly out of the saddle on the road bike.

Aero tuck on the road bike.

But as you'd expect....

road bike, 400TT (33, 33, 34s) 200(300)fTT (25, 25, 25s)

TT bike, 400TT (35, 33, 34s) 200(300)fTT (25, 25s)

the results are almost exactly the same!

Will try them again on the actual velodrome this morning.

I'll use the TT bike for the kilo, which is the only event I really have a chance in...

Andy
 
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