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andywood

Maximum Pace
Apr 8, 2008
2,761
2,822
The third time to do the three peaks of Mt. Hachikoku today.

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Starting at 「石川」the foot of Ishikawa Pass, we take in Upper Hachikoku, Middle Hachikoku and Lower Hachikoku.

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Three of us on the snow today. Overnight rain makes for the easiest climbing this year.

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With the 3 peaks at around 500m, this is the smallest mountain in town after Yoneyama (1000m) and Kurohime (900m) but the approach is fun, safe and always makes for good training.

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I broke my right snowshoe, so had to do the last climb on one leg and most of the descent on my bum!

20210211_160744.jpg

In general terms, I always think time on the rollers or on snow shoes is worth double that on the road, so 3.5h is always good.

I'll ride the trail tomorrow. Do a long group ride on the road on Saturday. And take the kids MTBing on Sunday.

Spring is just around the corner!

Andy
 

andywood

Maximum Pace
Apr 8, 2008
2,761
2,822
20210212_132001.jpg
Leave the snow for the trail today. Club Tropi Kakuda.

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Arms and legs out in full summer kit.

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A few laps following Tanaka san. After a week on the trainer it takes a while to get the control and handling back.

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The last lap race pace. My second best time in 100 or so tries. I did the best time after a taper for a race that was cancelled on March 1st 2020 when Corona took its hold.

With fresher legs and one of the fast guys pushing me, I am confident I can go sub 16.
20210212_193933.jpg

A 150km group ride planned tomorrow morning. With the range in temperature, good and bad days on the bike will be determined by fashion choices!

Ride on!

Andy
 

andywood

Maximum Pace
Apr 8, 2008
2,761
2,822
160km on the road today.

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60 solo.

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Then 100km through and off.

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Good pace for February.

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Hours of zwift and salty roads, the bike needs a new chain and a few other tweaks.

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Still she looks good from a distance!

Andy
 

baribari

Maximum Pace
May 28, 2010
1,182
789
Did my first road ride since last November. I really need to work on my 2-3 minute power on the bike, since I frequently get dropped when these sorts of efforts are required to latch back on to a group just a few dozen meters ahead of me. I know I should be able to do the numbers required on a trainer, but I think I have a mental limiter on the bike to prevent me from crashing or being unable to complete a ride.
 

andywood

Maximum Pace
Apr 8, 2008
2,761
2,822
Did my first road ride since last November. I really need to work on my 2-3 minute power on the bike, since I frequently get dropped when these sorts of efforts are required to latch back on to a group just a few dozen meters ahead of me. I know I should be able to do the numbers required on a trainer, but I think I have a mental limiter on the bike to prevent me from crashing or being unable to complete a ride.
Are you talking about after you do your turn on the front and then have to slot into the back of the group?

Andy
 

andywood

Maximum Pace
Apr 8, 2008
2,761
2,822
Did my first road ride since last November. I really need to work on my 2-3 minute power on the bike, since I frequently get dropped when these sorts of efforts are required to latch back on to a group just a few dozen meters ahead of me. I know I should be able to do the numbers required on a trainer, but I think I have a mental limiter on the bike to prevent me from crashing or being unable to complete a ride.
Are you talking about after you do your turn on the front and then have to slot into the back of the group?

Andy
 

baribari

Maximum Pace
May 28, 2010
1,182
789
Are you talking about after you do your turn on the front and then have to slot into the back of the group?

Andy
This was the case today, but I mean anytime where I’m too far away for a draft but have to go deep into the red to bridge or latch back on because of the speed. That said, I haven’t done any high-end work in months.
 

kiwisimon

Maximum Pace
Dec 14, 2006
3,508
1,695
I really need to work on my 2-3 minute power on the bike, since I frequently get dropped when these sorts of efforts are required to latch back on to a group just a few dozen meters ahead of me.


that is a challenge even for fit cyclists. You can only do it so many times.
It often happens after a tight corner and accordian braking and power down bursts stretch the rubber band.

If you know pinch points ahead of time work your way forward before the sharp corner or rise so you don't get dropped. Save a whole bundle of energy that way. Also choose when you apply the power. If you can do it with the wind, with another rider or on a decline when gravity plays into my favor.
But after 3 months away from a paceline maybe you were just leaving too much of a gap and not saving enough energy by drafting.
 

andywood

Maximum Pace
Apr 8, 2008
2,761
2,822
This was the case today, but I mean anytime where I’m too far away for a draft but have to go deep into the red to bridge or latch back on because of the speed. That said, I haven’t done any high-end work in months.

When riding in a group, it is important to assess the ability of the other riders.

I'm amazed when I talk to guys after rides, and some just curse their luck for being stuck between two aces in the pack.

The only thing you need to think is,

「Try to position yourself in the group to make the drafting as easy as possible and make your transition from lead man to back man as easy as possible.」

For example, today I was in a 6 man group.

In terms of ability, my assessment is 2 A riders, 2 B riders (including me, Bme) and 2 C riders.

20210213_091445.jpg

So, the left hand side is the head of the group, 6 riders:

A A B Bme C C

When the A riders are on the front, you want to be far back to get best drafting.

A A ... Bme

Often the A riders end up as a double as they mark each other.

You want to be back from them.

If however you are last man, when you come to the front it will be

Bme A A ...

This is the worst case scenario, as when you peel off, you have to get on the back of the group, with the A riders on the front.

A A .... Bme 〰️💣💥

As a rule, never have an A rider on your wheel!

A good scenario is,

A A C C Bme B

You are far enough back at 5th and 4th to get good draft when the A guys are on the front.

When the Cs come to the front

C C Bme B A A

Their turns with you at 3rd and 2nd man, semi exposed to the wind, should be shorter.

Then it's your turn.

Bme B A A C C

Keep the pace, but don't pull for too long. 50% or more of your effort should be kept for getting back on the back of the group.

After peeling off, watch the guys come past you and count them off.

1 B

2 A

3 A

4 C now is the time to accelerate

5 C get his wheel!

And there you are

B A A C C Bme

So don't get stuck between two aces!

If the order is not to your taste, shuffle the pack on climbs or at temporary stops.

Swinging off to clear your nose and slotting in further back is another good strategy!

Of course there is no replacement for regular group riding with riders stronger than you and intervals.

But the mantra that cycling is 50% physical and 50% mental holds true.

Probably just regurgitating stuff you all ready know but it's always good to put it out there.

Ride on!

Andy
 

factorzero

Cruising
Oct 10, 2020
41
51
Maybe this is more of a personal preference question but when you are doing mid length intervals, say 10-20mins, how do you pace your target power? Do you start at your target average power and just ride that to the end? Or do you ramp up/down etc?
 

andywood

Maximum Pace
Apr 8, 2008
2,761
2,822
Maybe this is more of a personal preference question but when you are doing mid length intervals, say 10-20mins, how do you pace your target power? Do you start at your target average power and just ride that to the end? Or do you ramp up/down etc?
If you are just doing a prescribed interval, say 200W for 10 mins, then just try and do a steady effort. If it feels easy at first and hard towards the end, then that's a good sign.

If you are trying to do a best 10 or 20 min effort, then it pays to build the power over the duration.

Remember, Power is only one of the 3 Ps.

If you have a good understanding of no.2
Pulse, ie. the HR you can sustain for the interval,

and a good understanding of no.3 Perception, ie. what it feels like to do your best effort for the duration,

this will arguably be more useful than looking at power which, to quote Chris Boardman, is just a number.

But at the end of the day, just practice it, look at power, look at HR and cadence, and gradually it will become kind of second nature.

Good luck!

Andy
 

andywood

Maximum Pace
Apr 8, 2008
2,761
2,822
Another week of training.

For the last two weeks, and for next week too, we have heavy snow in the week, and sunshine at the weekends.

This makes it fun training.

The usual weekly training blog link and cut and paste below.

Cheers, Andy


「zwift, snowshoes, cyclocross, group ride, solo, weather!」

last week's training blog
(click on the photos)
先週のトレーニングブログです
変な日本語すみません!
(写真をクリックしてください)

・monday: zwift workout x 2
・tuesday: zwift workout x 2
・wednesday: zwift workout x 2
・thursday: snow shoe 3.5h
・friday: kakuda CX
・saturday: group ride
・sunday: solo ride

ZWIFT
3 days of x 2 FTP workouts
intervals above and below 375W FTP
generating a daily TSS of around 120
三日間2回にFTPワークアウトをしました
375WFTPの上下のインターバル
一日のTSSは120位

SNOWSHOES
the 3 peaks of mt. hachikoku again
3 of us this time
great strength and endurance training
先週も八石山の3つのピークへ
今回は3人で
筋トレと持久力トレーニングになる

CYCLOCROSS
4 laps of the kakuda course
3 laps following Tanaka san
so smooth, learn so much
1 lap race pace
16:45 for a season best
with fresh legs, I want to cut 16mins!
角田トレールの4周
1~3周は田中さんの後ろ
とてもスムーズで勉強になる
4周目はレースペース
シーズンベストの16:45
フレッシュ足で16分カットしたい!

GROUP RIDE
160 km long ride
100km is fast 6 man through and off
the hardest training since summer!
160kmのロングライド
100kmは6人の高速ローテーション
夏のビッググラベルライドのようなトレーニング!

SOLO
120km long ride
this is easy after yesterday
must be getting stronger!
120kmのロングライド
昨日より楽々!
強くなっているかな?!

WEATHER!
in niigata in winter you have to schedule your training around the weather
this year is a mix of heavy snow in the week
and warm sunshine at weekends
the perfect training mix!
冬の新潟では、天候に合わせて
トレーニングをスケジュールする必要がある
今年は平日大雪
週末は晴れ
最高なトレーニングミックス!
 

factorzero

Cruising
Oct 10, 2020
41
51
If you are just doing a prescribed interval, say 200W for 10 mins, then just try and do a steady effort. If it feels easy at first and hard towards the end, then that's a good sign.

If you are trying to do a best 10 or 20 min effort, then it pays to build the power over the duration.

Remember, Power is only one of the 3 Ps.

If you have a good understanding of no.2
Pulse, ie. the HR you can sustain for the interval,

and a good understanding of no.3 Perception, ie. what it feels like to do your best effort for the duration,

this will arguably be more useful than looking at power which, to quote Chris Boardman, is just a number.

But at the end of the day, just practice it, look at power, look at HR and cadence, and gradually it will become kind of second nature.

Good luck!

Andy
Thanks. I was doing a 20 min effort to understand what it feels like to pace a best effort at that interval. I chose a target of 240W and committed to a steady effort. Towards the end it got harder because I felt aerobically fatigued but after anerobicly not so much. After my breathing and heart rate came down I felt like my legs could easily do that again with no power loss ( this was mid ride and I didn't notice any significant fatigue after that).

Which is why I was wondering that maybe I missed out on a few watts by not ramping up more towards the later half of the interval. Or maybe the target number was too low for steady state.
 

kiwisimon

Maximum Pace
Dec 14, 2006
3,508
1,695
@factorzero
Towards the end it got harder because I felt aerobically fatigued
that is FTP. It's a cardio vascular measure, the fact your heart blew up before your legs did just means you need more training.

you have a power meter so you can do a rough ramp test outside.
start with a warm up for 15 minutes or so.
use the same stretch of road as the last 20 minute test
start riding at 140watts and every minute go up 10 watts. take your last minute before you blow up and multiply by 75%. This will give you a rough FTP. Use that as a base to start doing some targeted fart leg training and you'll see improvement.
 

OreoCookie

Maximum Pace
Dec 2, 2017
1,546
1,355
@OreoCookie oh, I don't have a trainer so I'm not sure if that's possible.
Ah, ok, although you could still do a ramp test (see @kiwisimon's post). But also on the road a 20-minute test is going to be hard to do safely. Apart from long, sustained climbs (which are off limits this time of year) there are no roads where I could do a 20-minute FTP test. Even an 8-minute FTP test is going to be tough. And even if you do have some roads that qualify, I don't think I would be able to push as hard as indoors.
 

andywood

Maximum Pace
Apr 8, 2008
2,761
2,822
Ah, ok, although you could still do a ramp test (see @kiwisimon's post). But also on the road a 20-minute test is going to be hard to do safely. Apart from long, sustained climbs (which are off limits this time of year) there are no roads where I could do a 20-minute FTP test. Even an 8-minute FTP test is going to be tough. And even if you do have some roads that qualify, I don't think I would be able to push as hard as indoors.
Good points, but if you are training outdoors, your FTP and associated power zones should be based on the power you can push outdoors.

Much in the same way, if you want to focus on flat TTs, you should do the test on the flat and in your aero position.

Or if you are focusing on hillclimbs, you want to test on a hill.

I am lucky that we have kilometres of uninterrupted coastline for 20 minute tests.

However, when I've been really pushed for time, I've done 20 minute FTP tests on a square circuit. Coasting through the corners and utilizing Normalized Power.

Not ideal but that was were I was doing my TT training anyway so the numbers are relevant to my training goals.

Andy
 

OreoCookie

Maximum Pace
Dec 2, 2017
1,546
1,355
I had a very good training week: I did my usual 5 workouts, amounting to almost 600 TSS, which I think is my highest yet. Despite that, I nailed all workouts, be it over-unders, VO2max or long sweetspot efforts, mentally I feel quite strong.

But I have to be careful not to overdo it. Next week will be a bit easier with about 520 again. Then I have a rest week scheduled. But so far scaling up the workload seems to work fine. The only difference is that my need for sleep has increased quite a bit. I slept 8 hours and it felt more like 7ish.
 
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