Race The Training Thread

Sikochi

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Sep 13, 2010
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Kochi
#81
Any Wahoo Kickr users interested in getting the Climb? Buying more than one at a time on Wiggle brings the shipping cost down a bit.
If you're not in a rush for it, Black Friday is coming soon, and that seems to be the kind of thing that you would find a deal on...assuming you can get good shipping from the states.
 
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baribari

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May 28, 2010
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Fukushima
#82
Cheers for the reply! Sorry, I wasn’t very clear in my original post. I think what I really want to know is how I can train more effectively on the flats. I often do a loop to the gym along the river (between 25-45km depending how I feel), so I’m looking at how I can train a little smarter on the way there.

As for proper climbs, I save those for my longer rides (between 3-5 hours). Ideally, I like to get in one of those each week too, though I’ve struggled a bit with then recently as the weather has been so bad.
Do intervals? 40/20s for example. That means 40 hard, 20 easy, repeat.

Riding a hard gear into the wind can let you train for climbs on flat road.
 
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stu_kawagoe

Speeding Up
Jun 23, 2018
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#84
Do intervals? 40/20s for example. That means 40 hard, 20 easy, repeat.

Riding a hard gear into the wind can let you train for climbs on flat road.
I’ll have a look into some interval training. Btw, 40 seconds on seems pretty short. What is the benefit of that?
 

andywood

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Apr 8, 2008
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#86
Cheers for the reply! Sorry, I wasn’t very clear in my original post. I think what I really want to know is how I can train more effectively on the flats. I often do a loop to the gym along the river (between 25-45km depending how I feel), so I’m looking at how I can train a little smarter on the way there.

As for proper climbs, I save those for my longer rides (between 3-5 hours). Ideally, I like to get in one of those each week too, though I’ve struggled a bit with then recently as the weather has been so bad.
Short intervals are great for top end fitness. But if you are just getting into serious training I would recommend 10 mins x 2. Over time you can slowly build to 15 minutes and 3 sets.

On the road, I recommend finding a nice 3 to 4 km of river bank. Ride it out, U turn, and ride it back. Then create a 6 to 8km Strava segment for it.

Then watch your fitness improve with improved times.

The good thing about an out and back is it will be less affected by wind. Also you'll be motivated to ride it in different wind conditions.

Also, if it's an out an back, others may not have ridden it so you get to try and steal the KOM from your biggest rival, yesterday's you!

2 of those with a 10 minutes rest interval is a good workout.

Andy
 
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OreoCookie

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Dec 2, 2017
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#87
Cheers for the reply! Sorry, I wasn’t very clear in my original post. I think what I really want to know is how I can train more effectively on the flats. I often do a loop to the gym along the river (between 25-45km depending how I feel), so I’m looking at how I can train a little smarter on the way there.
You can start to do intervals using e. g. phone apps. I have one that uses audio cues to tell me what kind of interval I am doing and what the duration is. However, you may have to adapt your intervals to the local geography, in particular traffic lights and other road users. And you can't do intervals in traffic, for example. That's why I prefer doing hill climbs, as it is much safer and closer than finding longer stretches of quasi flat roads where I can let it rip.

Simple interval types would be e. g. pyramid intervals where you so from 30 seconds, 1 minute, 1:30, 2:00, 1:30, 1 minute and back down to 30 seconds. In between each interval you have a rest period for 3-5 minutes. In the beginning, err on the longer side. And for the longer interval, there is an element of pacing involved. You may have to adapt this to your local geography, though.

What is important here is that you don't just do high intensity, but really go easy in between the hard efforts. You have to give your body time to refuel and you want to keep your fatigue in check. And that is determined in large part by the amount of high intensity stuff you do. So you could “only” spend 20-30 minutes of your total workout at high intensity and that is great.
As for proper climbs, I save those for my longer rides (between 3-5 hours). Ideally, I like to get in one of those each week too, though I’ve struggled a bit with then recently as the weather has been so bad.
Doing hill climb reps really helps you, though. You get accustomed to pushing hard for, say, 4-7 minutes and then letting off. I went for a longer bike ride last weekend, and this was really helpful in undulating terrain where you'd have an incline of, say 20-40 m of elevation, you go downhill again, rinse and repeat. And I don't think this can be replicated well by training on the flats.
 
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OreoCookie

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#88
I’ll have a look into some interval training. Btw, 40 seconds on seems pretty short. What is the benefit of that?
You want your body to adapt to different types of efforts, and different types of training will stress different parts of your system, which in turn will cause different adaptations of your body to the stress. To be a well-rounded cyclist, you of course have to train to make several adaptations happen. You can do this both, to emphasize strengths and iron out weaknesses.

If you do 30 second sprints followed by 3 minutes of very easy pedaling, simply put, you will get better at sprinting, but not at climbing long and sustained climbs. The reason why you do not go full gas the whole time for most interval sessions is that you want to go beyond what your body can output aerobically (i. e. as a sustained effort). But then you need to give your body time to recharge, literally, until you are ready to push hard again.
 
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stu_kawagoe

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Jun 23, 2018
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#89
Lots of useful advice here. I'm off this Thursday and Friday, so I'll try and get out on the river on one those days and report back with how it went.
 

leicaman

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Sep 20, 2012
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#90
I’ve found that training on the flats is of use if you want to get faster on the flats but if you want to get faster on the climbs, you need to do more climbing. This year I’ve been pushed for time so I’ve been doing shorter Arakawa training rides and when I have got into the mountains, it’s pretty much been for one climb before doing a U-turn and riding home so I’ve hardly been doing any climbing. The result is that I feel pretty strong on the flats now, but my climbing has suffered. I did a benchmark climb on Shiraishi last Saturday and was able to hold a decent power for the first five minutes. After that, it dropped through the floor and I ended up with a much lower power than usual and crap time. The muscles I use for climbing just weren’t there.
 

Sikochi

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#91
It's interesting that you do VO2 max intervals. Do you think they benefit your triathlon?

I haven't done any this year as I focus on TTs. I tried to keep training as specific as possible. I'm thinking I don't need that top end, but maybe VO2 max intervals will benefit general fitness? My TT work was mostly 12 to 15 minutes x 2, so basically FTP intervals.

I only notice my lack of top end in group rides, like this morning, when I can't compete in the hill sprints.

But maybe I should incorporate some in my training next year...

Andy
I have more time...when i first started tri, i stopped with regular intervals on the bike, as I just couldn't handle the load - mainly the swimming was the exhausting factor (I'd be gone after 4 days). But over time, fitness improves, so last week for instance (back door brag coming), I had one rest day (end of week), the other 6 days all had some running (all easy), and some cycling (with 2 x VO2 sets) and 4 days swimming (including a 1.5km straight/non-stop swim). But that will be like a peak week, especially with my Achilles starting to complain.

As for usefulness, the VO2 sets, both had running after - one immediately - stop the bike, start running - the other after a break, so there is still specificity. But also, with the hill climb, i was doing 15-25 min intervals (specificity for the event), so variety is good. Overall, I would say VO2 works best for me - if we carry on the previous thread, is there one interval set that works better for each individual? - but also they are more enjoyable and easier to do, as the end is never very far away, so more sustainable, and they only require a short block of time. In training terms, then being a Critical Power subscriber (I'm not into FTP), intervals should be done over CP, which VO2 and 15 min intervals (and also 30/30 or 40/20 or similar) are. So your TT training counts as CP work, rather than FTP work.

Like you said, specificity counts, but can there be too much of it? The common cliche is that 'a rising tide raises all boats', so anything that raises your power, will improve your TT. And there is the idea that the best training program you can do is the one you are not doing (different stimulus). But VO2 won't help much with sprints.

My next triathlon has a flat 40 km bike leg, laps with turnarounds, so I'm guessing a bit of crit style training would work well, but i don't think you are allowed to overtake at the turnarounds, and not sure how sprinting to get up to speed (burning matches) will impact the running, so not sure precisely how it will work. But if the achilles gets worse, I will only do the swim and bike, and then retire.
 
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andywood

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#92
I like your comment about, too much specificity. I'm definitely guilty of that. As I target the next event, I try to simulate it in training. So for the 60km TT at Suzuka, I am doing.... 60km TTs! This is a good training motivator and gives you the mental confidence to do the job on race day. But long term, I should be thinking of different ways to get faster.

This winter, I plan to put a bigger emphasis on weight training. See if I can get a little stronger. Maybe change from the traditional base miles on the trainer too. I recently signed up to Zwift just to mix things up a bit when we are snowed in this winter.

I hope the achilles sorts itself out. The one thing that puts me off running (other than cross training) is injury. I was out with some physios that I teach just last night. They are cyclists, runners, triathletes, footballers too. For running, especially over 10k, they were talking of how important running form is. I know my form isn't pretty (from looking at my reflection in glass windows!) so I would probably need some kind of run coaching. Did you try that?

Anyway, thanks as always!

Andy
 

OreoCookie

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Dec 2, 2017
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#93
I have more time...when i first started tri, i stopped with regular intervals on the bike, as I just couldn't handle the load - mainly the swimming was the exhausting factor (I'd be gone after 4 days). But over time, fitness improves, so last week for instance (back door brag coming), I had one rest day (end of week), the other 6 days all had some running (all easy), and some cycling (with 2 x VO2 sets) and 4 days swimming (including a 1.5km straight/non-stop swim). But that will be like a peak week, especially with my Achilles starting to complain.
That's quite a bit of sports. I'm really jealous of people who can go running, but my joints just can't handle it anymore.
As for usefulness, the VO2 sets, both had running after - one immediately - stop the bike, start running - the other after a break, so there is still specificity. But also, with the hill climb, i was doing 15-25 min intervals (specificity for the event), so variety is good. Overall, I would say VO2 works best for me - if we carry on the previous thread, is there one interval set that works better for each individual?
If you are only doing one type of interval, you are just aiming to get one specific type of adaptation. Mixing it up would yield broader benefits.
 

Sikochi

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Sep 13, 2010
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Kochi
#94
I like your comment about, too much specificity. I'm definitely guilty of that. As I target the next event, I try to simulate it in training. So for the 60km TT at Suzuka, I am doing.... 60km TTs! This is a good training motivator and gives you the mental confidence to do the job on race day. But long term, I should be thinking of different ways to get faster.
But if you have swapped from doing 12-15 X 2 simulations, then it does qualify as an alternative stimulus. How well can you replicate the course layout/demands of the course?

This winter, I plan to put a bigger emphasis on weight training. See if I can get a little stronger. Maybe change from the traditional base miles on the trainer too. I recently signed up to Zwift just to mix things up a bit when we are snowed in this winter.
I should do that as well, as I think I am starting to see the signs of age related muscle decline. Here, we don't get any settled snow, so winter riding is not much different from any other time of the year; I just avoid those long descents...brrr.
I hope the achilles sorts itself out. The one thing that puts me off running (other than cross training) is injury. I was out with some physios that I teach just last night. They are cyclists, runners, triathletes, footballers too. For running, especially over 10k, they were talking of how important running form is. I know my form isn't pretty (from looking at my reflection in glass windows!) so I would probably need some kind of run coaching. Did you try that?
Yes, running is always the worst for aches and pains, which is one of the reasons why I switched over to cycling when i was a teenager. It's also why I mainly just run easy, apart from the occasional short sprints/strides to end a session. Plus, why I haven't gone past an olympic distance tri yet. Thanks for the suggestion. I haven't tried a running form check. I would say my running form only goes south with fatigue, i.e. when running further than my current run fitness. The achilles was just kind of a freak accident. Before my last tri, I noticed that my running shoes were wearing out, but didn't want to change them, as like all running brands seem to do, Under Armour had slightly changed the model, so I was trying to nurse the Version 1s through to the race, before switching to the Version 2s. Sadly, the heel had worn out too much, and the worn out heel rubbed on the achilles on one run, and that was the cause. So just stretching/foam rolling/running with the bike to take some weight/more heel striking is the current state of affairs. But watching runners is fascinating, as it is the most natural thing to do, but the majority of adults I see, are all over the place.
 
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Sikochi

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#95
That's quite a bit of sports. I'm really jealous of people who can go running, but my joints just can't handle it anymore.
Sorry to hear about the joints. As for time, mainly, it's all just fitted in around commuting time e.g. extended ride one way, run/push bike on the way back, with the swimming fitted in after work on the way home - the benefit of living in a small town.
 

OreoCookie

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#96
Sorry to hear about the joints.
It really, really sucks. I was on a business trip in Switzerland and went running: the weather was perfect, my cardiovascular system was in good shape and I was able to bang out 16 km up the Zürichberg in beautiful weather. But then I couldn't really move my right leg properly for a day. I did two 8 km runs afterwards, and I was ok, but I was left wanting more, knowing that I shouldn't.
As for time, mainly, it's all just fitted in around commuting time e.g. extended ride one way, run/push bike on the way back, with the swimming fitted in after work on the way home - the benefit of living in a small town.
That can't hurt and makes your way back home more interesting. But do you have enough uninterrupted road to do intervals where you live? Sendai is full of traffic lights from hell that seem to be timed so as to maximize stop-and-go traffic.
 

GrantT

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#97
I am debating whether to enter a road race a week after my criterium... it's run by the same organization and would be a single lap of a 27-km course with what looks like one hilly section, although I haven't looked to see the elevation change. I suspect I would be immediately shat out the back even of the "beginner" race on the climb and be forced to make up a ton of ground on the downhill and flats.

(Tour de Katsurao)
Just in case you have not heard, this entire event recently became free to enter.
https://www.link-tohoku.co.jp/single-post/katsurao-rescue-20181011
The original entry page has closed, so they say to use the contact form linked on that web site.