Race The Training Thread

[OreoCookie]

The spindown time varies greatly depending on the temperature of the trainer, taking much longer when it's hot.
More heat means the grease in the bearing is less viscous, and the rubber belt is more supple.

Right.
You can feel that in resistance mode.

I wonder if that isn't a factor in why the perfect power (averaging well within the margin of error) starts to drift upwards slightly (3-4% high on average) after about 10 minutes. Probably not enough to notice.

I'm not sure. That depends very much on how trainers handle temperature compensation, I suppose.

Supposedly 10 minutes of warmup is best (I have seen it written that after a ride is the second best option), but I think it should be more like 20 minutes if you're riding in a cold room.

In my experience, it isn't just about time, but about the wattage you put and for how long. E. g. when I have intervals with long pauses, the trainer cools down, which leads to lower rpm for the same watts at the crank.

Wahoo confirmed that Kickrs are most accurate between 15 to 30 C. Curious whether they calibrate it to compensate for drivetrain loss...

Most trainers have active temperature compensation, just like other power meters. Elite mentions this explicitly with some models. Exceptions are e. g. Elite trainers with optical torque sensors, because those aren't influenced by temperature as a matter of principle.

AFAIK they do not do anything to compensate for drivetrain loss. (I had asked that question in the TR forum and dcrainmaker replied, and said "No.")

 

[nateberkopec]

Walkride WR ROAD 11/5 ビギナー race report at Shizuoka Cycle Sports Center

First, I love this venue. I haven't been to the Gunma one yet so I can't compare it, but I love this course. Today, they switched it up though. Rather than running a 4km course counter-clockwise, they ran the full 5k circuit clockwise. This ends up basically dividing a lap into two climbs: one ~3m45s climb (1.3k at 6%) and a climb interrupted by the false flat of the start/finish straight (1.1k at 5% total). Beginner was truncated to 3 laps versus the usual 4 to account for the length added by using the full circuit.

Beginner class was about 25 riders. Easily about 12 of them came from a Tokyo high school team, very impressive turnout for them (they had ~6 more in the higher classes too).

First climb and the first long downhill was neutral, so they dropped neutral at the bottom of the big climb. I knew with a bunch of kids they were gonna absolutely whack it, and they did. I hung on until the end of the first lap but then got blown off into the second group. The "main group" was already dropped though. I hung on with a small 2nd group of 2 other riders until the end, but didn't have the gas to sprint.

I finished in 5th. I'm happy with the result. Last time out was 10th, so I'm improving (thank god, I'm riding way more)! The non-neutralized section of the race was ~310 watts normalized for 25 minutes. I basically equalled my season best power from 3 minutes up to 15 minutes or so.

I think I'll do Oiso in December to close out the season.

 

[OreoCookie]

I have started my new training season. Due to a long pause (waiting for my trainer, illness, stress related to starting a new job), my FTP is as low as it has been in years. But I feel really good on the bike and my sleep is solid.

My goal for next week is to not contract whatever bug our oldest caught

 

[baribari]

Right.
You can feel that in resistance mode.

I'm not sure. That depends very much on how trainers handle temperature compensation, I suppose.

In my experience, it isn't just about time, but about the wattage you put and for how long. E. g. when I have intervals with long pauses, the trainer cools down, which leads to lower rpm for the same watts at the crank.

Most trainers have active temperature compensation, just like other power meters. Elite mentions this explicitly with some models. Exceptions are e. g. Elite trainers with optical torque sensors, because those aren't influenced by temperature as a matter of principle.

AFAIK they do not do anything to compensate for drivetrain loss. (I had asked that question in the TR forum and dcrainmaker replied, and said "No.")

I did a factory spindown just to be sure, and now the numbers are (finally) basically exactly what you would expect to see (though I'm not 100% this is because of the spindown or simply because the room was a bit warmer). Slightly below the power meter when the unit is cold, and basically dead on after it's warm. Even when the live numbers feel off, it seems that the averages are well within the margin of error.

Previously it would start dead-on and basically drift 4% high, which means it was actually even higher when you consider losses.

However, after about 45 minutes, it does start to run a bit high. Sometimes 15-20 watts high when going uphill in Zwift.
So I do suspect that the temperature compensation isn't perfect. Though this might just be the nature of how trainers measure power.
During a post-workout cooldown (in TR), there was something like a 25% error, but that's probably because I was near the resistance floor of the unit.

Hopefully this accuracy isn't just an artifact of using ERG mode in TR, but but I'm finally comfortable taking my good bike off the trainer and putting my indoor bike back on...

Probably won't be at the front of the Category C pack in Zwift anymore, lol.

 

[baribari]

Walkride WR ROAD 11/5 ビギナー race report at Shizuoka Cycle Sports Center

First, I love this venue. I haven't been to the Gunma one yet so I can't compare it, but I love this course. Today, they switched it up though. Rather than running a 4km course counter-clockwise, they ran the full 5k circuit clockwise. This ends up basically dividing a lap into two climbs: one ~3m45s climb (1.3k at 6%) and a climb interrupted by the false flat of the start/finish straight (1.1k at 5% total). Beginner was truncated to 3 laps versus the usual 4 to account for the length added by using the full circuit.

Beginner class was about 25 riders. Easily about 12 of them came from a Tokyo high school team, very impressive turnout for them (they had ~6 more in the higher classes too).

First climb and the first long downhill was neutral, so they dropped neutral at the bottom of the big climb. I knew with a bunch of kids they were gonna absolutely whack it, and they did. I hung on until the end of the first lap but then got blown off into the second group. The "main group" was already dropped though. I hung on with a small 2nd group of 2 other riders until the end, but didn't have the gas to sprint.

I finished in 5th. I'm happy with the result. Last time out was 10th, so I'm improving (thank god, I'm riding way more)! The non-neutralized section of the race was ~310 watts normalized for 25 minutes. I basically equalled my season best power from 3 minutes up to 15 minutes or so.

I think I'll do Oiso in December to close out the season.

Better than any result I've ever had, especially on such a hard course!

 

[baribari]

Thought I was on the way to feeling better, but I got covid. This year has not been a good cycling year…

 

[Tsuga]

You can't really apply the 90-95% formula to a 20-minute effort unless you do the five-minute effort first.
Otherwise, your anaerobic system is contributing too much, so your result will get skewed upward.

Maybe we're confusing the protocol here. Some coaches apply a 5 minute effort prior to your test with 5-10 minutes rest followed by the 20 minute test. The closest I can find is TrainerRoad calling the 5 minutes part of the "Main set", but that's followed by 10 minutes of easy riding. So it's not the first 5 minutes of your test all out followed by 15 minutes of hanging on.

I had a rest week last week, so I decided to do some testing today.

I did a ramp test, which went about as expected. Very easy until around 380, but my above threshold power is terrible. I made it to the 420w segment and just didn't have it in me to keep going.



Zwift told me my FTP should be 303... and I didn't really like that. So I jumped right into a 20 minute effort after the 10 minutes of easy riding. Average & Normalized were both right at 340, so I'd say my pacing was on point. This was an effort on Alpe Du Zwift, so the grade is a higher %, but I ride with my trainer difficulty turned down to "flatten" the climb.



Next time I'll just stick to 20 minute tests. It's better for my ego considering my performance in the ramp test. I'm still looking to crack ~355 for 20 minutes. This was my first "interval" in months, so glad to see the power hasn't dropped too much. Almost makes me want to jump back into doing some tempo and steady state.

 

[baribari]

Maybe we're confusing the protocol here. Some coaches apply a 5 minute effort prior to your test with 5-10 minutes rest followed by the 20 minute test. The closest I can find is TrainerRoad calling the 5 minutes part of the "Main set", but that's followed by 10 minutes of easy riding. So it's not the first 5 minutes of your test all out followed by 15 minutes of hanging on.

I had a rest week last week, so I decided to do some testing today.

I did a ramp test, which went about as expected. Very easy until around 380, but my above threshold power is terrible. I made it to the 420w segment and just didn't have it in me to keep going.

View attachment 39913

Zwift told me my FTP should be 303... and I didn't really like that. So I jumped right into a 20 minute effort after the 10 minutes of easy riding. Average & Normalized were both right at 340, so I'd say my pacing was on point. This was an effort on Alpe Du Zwift, so the grade is a higher %, but I ride with my trainer difficulty turned down to "flatten" the climb.

View attachment 39914

Next time I'll just stick to 20 minute tests. It's better for my ego considering my performance in the ramp test. I'm still looking to crack ~355 for 20 minutes. This was my first "interval" in months, so glad to see the power hasn't dropped too much. Almost makes me want to jump back into doing some tempo and steady state.

The "real" 20-minute test protocol as prescribed by its inventor includes a five-minute effort. Therefor a 20-minute effort by itself is not a proper FTP test, not that it doesn't give you useful information.

On another note, I have basically not had any alcohol for two weeks. I should be able to go for at least another week until my family arrives in Japan.
Haven't lost any weight yet, but the "hormonal effects" have been.... noticeable. lol.

Next year, I shall see to it that I become faster! The first step is to not go overboard during the holidays.

My target is the Tour de Fukushima in May... assuming it actually happens.


Edit:
On an unrelated note, it was super interesting to see my HRV and my "hormone meter" not responding the way I expected them to as I started getting sick this week. Sure enough, it was COVID. So HRV is occasionally useful for more than just telling me to drink less.

 

[Tsuga]

The "real" 20-minute test protocol as prescribed by its inventor includes a five-minute effort. Therefor a 20-minute effort by itself is not a proper FTP test, not that it doesn't give you useful information.

From what I'm seeing the Coggan protocol is:

1. 20 minutes easy warm up
2. 3 x 1-minute wind ups with a minute rest between (100 RPM pedal cadence)
3. 5 minutes easy
4. 5 minutes all out (hard at first, but not so hard that you can't complete the effort)
5. 10 minutes easy
6. 20-minute time trial effort (this is the test - like the previous 5-minute all out effort, keep in control, hard but steady, you don't want to over cook it and die at the end)
7. 10 to 15 minute cool down

https://www.hunterallenpowerblog.com/2013/01/what-is-ftp.html - Hunter Allen's blog references the same, but he does call the 5 minute effort part of the test albeit still followed by 10 minutes of rest.

And he says:

The goal of this first part of the effort is twofold: first,to open up the legs for the rest of the test, and second, to measure your ability to produce watts in the VO2max power zone. This initial 5-minute effort also helps to dispense the "freshness" that always exists at the beginning of a ride; your next effort will produce power that is more likely to be truly representative of your FTP.

So yes, both do include a 5 minute effort. But personally I see this as more part of the warmup than the test itself since you're recovering between the effort and the test.. Coincidentally I have also read that Coggan doesn't like the 20 minute test even though he helped invent it. Either way, I do trust my coach, and he only gives a standard warm up protocol that doesn't include a 5 minute effort. Something more similar to "openers" which is 8 minutes tempo & 4 minute steady state.

I guess I also unintentionally recreated something similar today with the ramp test followed by 20 minutes.

Unrelated to power, but related to drinking, I've still been off the alcohol. I don't really have any motivation to pick it back up. Really enjoying the Kirin Ichi NA beer.

 

[OreoCookie]

Coincidentally I have also read that Coggan doesn't like the 20 minute test even though he helped invent it.

Yeah, I had an exchange about that with him on the TrainerRoad forum. He did not write he changed his mind, his response that the 20-minute test was Hunter Allen's doing even though he mentions this idea very early on in his research. He even seemed to get angry that this nobody (= me) was arguing with him about that — I had just cited his own works.

I found that a bit weird, I'm not an exercise physiologist but a scientist in another field. In my field that'd be big no-no, I haven't published anything that I thought was wrong. Changing your mind is ok, sometimes further study reveals new evidence. But if your name is on the publication, you can't just shirk responsibility for what you have published, expecting people to magically know that you don't stand behind something quite central in your publication.

My opinion on FTP tests is simple: pick a protocol and verify the result. Over-unders or steady intervals at threshold both work for me. @baribari has a point when he emphasizes the importance of emptying your anaerobic stores prior to the 20-minute effort. But if you correct for that as necessary, simpler protocols might work, too.

 

[Tsuga]

Yeah, I had an exchange about that with him on the TrainerRoad forum. He did not write he changed his mind, his response that the 20-minute test was Hunter Allen's doing even though he mentions this idea very early on in his research. He even seemed to get angry that this nobody (= me) was arguing with him about that — I had just cited his own works.

What was it exactly that he didn't like about it? I didn't see an exact reasoning, it was just an anecdote I read. And what would he suggest we do? Should we all be doing 60 minute tests.

My personal experiment was to see if the ramp test could work for me, and it doesn't. I can honestly say that the only thing I learned from doing it was, well, not to do it. It was beneficial as you say to empty the "anaerobic stores" for my follow up 20 minute test, so I guess that worked. The ramp test would give me a drop in FTP of 23 watts, while the 20 minute test suggests 7. In my opinion the 7 is much more realistic considering my recent z2 riding, which would become z3 based on the ramp test. I don't think I'm capable of riding for 3-5 hours at z3, although that would be nice.

 

[casualguy939]

I love smart people, but I am too stupid for this conversation.

 

[Tsuga]

I love smart people, but I am too stupid for this conversation.

Haha, it's an overcomplication of a simple topic: "How do you measure your ability to ride a bike". It used to be just how fast you can ride up a hill or do a local loop. At a certain level we're all too stupid for this type of conversation which is why the smarter people become professional coaches and then get paid by the dumber of us.

I was talking to my group of friends back home, some of them are professional coaches, about this. One of them finally asked "What are you even training for?" - I guess wondering why I was even doing FTP tests... and honestly I'm not training for anything. So I could be the king of stupid.

 

[GrantT]

Yeah, the ultimate test of training is where you come in a race, and if you are not racing enough to test that then its not training but exercise.

 

[casualguy939]

Well, I am training for the same thing you are I guess. Well, not really, but really. I have my eye on the TABR (Trans Am Bike Race), which is a 7000km unsupported bike race across the US, so a 1 hour FTP is kind of useless for me. But for some dumb reason I keep focusing on my FTP and my rides kind of mimic it recently. Longer rides of 100-150 watts would be better, but as I wrote above...

 

[GrantT]

True, it doesn't have to be a race. It can be any goal, like training to cross america, training not to be out of breath on the local cafe ride, or... training to learn enough about training to talk on Internet forums about training.

 

[Tsuga]

Well, I am training for the same thing you are I guess. Well, not really, but really. I have my eye on the TABR (Trans Am Bike Race), which is a 7000km unsupported bike race across the US, so a 1 hour FTP is kind of useless for me. But for some dumb reason I keep focusing on my FTP and my rides kind of mimic it recently. Longer rides of 100-150 watts would be better, but as I wrote above...

That's a really cool goal! When are you thinking about doing it?

FTP and knowing your "zones" can still be a useful metric for that kind of thing. It can help avoiding an explosion, while also meaning you're still putting out power to go at a decent speed so you're not just noodling around all day, which sometimes can be equally as tiring. And then as you train that lower limit rises and you can go further or faster. For data driven people it also helps quantify sensations. I know what I feel like when I'm tired... but when I see a certain power number while feeling tired, it drives home the point. "Oh, I'm feeling tired at xxx watts & I also felt like this yesterday, it probably is time for a rest week".

Unless of course you're doing it just for the fun of it and you're not worried about xxxkm per day, or finishing in xxx hours! Then none of the data really matters, which is fine too.

My half-joking reply to my friend was that I'm training for my own ego and narcissism. At some point this is what I've come to expect from myself and there's a certain enjoyment in just being "strong". While I'm (relatively) young with fewer obligations I want to hang onto that feeling.

 

[casualguy939]

That's a really cool goal! When are you thinking about doing it?

FTP and knowing your "zones" can still be a useful metric for that kind of thing. It can help avoiding an explosion, while also meaning you're still putting out power to go at a decent speed so you're not just noodling around all day, which sometimes can be equally as tiring. And then as you train that lower limit rises and you can go further or faster. For data driven people it also helps quantify sensations. I know what I feel like when I'm tired... but when I see a certain power number while feeling tired, it drives home the point. "Oh, I'm feeling tired at xxx watts & I also felt like this yesterday, it probably is time for a rest week".

Unless of course you're doing it just for the fun of it and you're not worried about xxxkm per day, or finishing in xxx hours! Then none of the data really matters, which is fine too.

My half-joking reply to my friend was that I'm training for my own ego and narcissism. At some point this is what I've come to expect from myself and there's a certain enjoyment in just being "strong". While I'm (relatively) young with fewer obligations I want to hang onto that feeling.

I hear that. I've been a bit stagnant the past couple of months with other stuff going on, but I still push myself hard on most rides even at 55 because I know that someday I won't be able to. TBH, after some rides just puttering around I get irritated and ask myself why I even bothered to ride if I wasn't going after a PR or something similar.

I listen and read when data driven people put out their thoughts on it, but I am sadly not organized enough to be able to use that data myself. I need to get professional help to get past my current fitness level for sure.

I had planned on doing it on my titanium road bike the year Covid-19 hit, but it got put on the back burner while Japan fiddled about with the re-entry requirements, so it has been simmering there since. If pressed, I could do it June 2024 on my current recumbent bike, but it will likely be 2025 on a totally different bike (Streamliner).

 

[Yogi]

or... training to learn enough about training to talk on Internet forums about training.

And that's what they call an ouchy!

 

[Tsuga]

I hear that. I've been a bit stagnant the past couple of months with other stuff going on, but I still push myself hard on most rides even at 55 because I know that someday I won't be able to. TBH, after some rides just puttering around I get irritated and ask myself why I even bothered to ride if I wasn't going after a PR or something similar.

I listen and read when data driven people put out their thoughts on it, but I am sadly not organized enough to be able to use that data myself. I need to get professional help to get past my current fitness level for sure.

I had planned on doing it on my titanium road bike the year Covid-19 hit, but it got put on the back burner while Japan fiddled about with the re-entry requirements, so it has been simmering there since. If pressed, I could do it June 2024 on my current recumbent bike, but it will likely be 2025 on a totally different bike (Streamliner).

Puttering around is where those gains are at though! I guess to use the common sporting anology: cycling is a marathon, not a sprint. But I'm sure you know that. I think it can be frustrating because sometimes it feels like you're just out on the open sea with no wind in the sails. But then one day you get somewhere and you can look back at all the work you did and how it added up over time. And that's just the fitness side. You'll develop so much more comfort on the bike & learn better riding techniques just by spending time on the bike. And at 55 you've still got a lot of good years left! Maybe you'll end up like one of those guys racings Worlds at 80+ haha.

I'm not a coach, but I think if I was my advice would be to focus on just riding regularly. Maybe an hours per week goal instead of focusing on a training plan or a power number. Most of us can see a huge benefit just by riding consistently. 2025 gives you 1.5 years assuming you're looking at doing it in the summer. You can do a lot in that time.