niigata hillclimb 2014

wexford

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#2
You are nicely nuts. Well done. Fab read as always.

Why did you bother with the lap button? Don't they give you a time at the finish?
 

theBlob

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Sep 28, 2011
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#3
Great read as always! Well done, I love how your photo the HR keeps going up until the word "RESET" Ha ha ha!
 

andywood

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Apr 8, 2008
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#4
You are nicely nuts. Well done. Fab read as always.

Why did you bother with the lap button? Don't they give you a time at the finish?
Cheers. Yes positively bonkers.

Of course you get results and certificates at the finish. But I didn't hang around. Necked a beer and rocketed down the other side of the mountain. I hate all that waiting around at the top and then descending with 500 people with your brakes anchored...

Hit the lap button out of habit. I wouldn't have done it if I'd known that guy was coming up from behind. Thank god we weren't battling for 1st and 2nd!

Andy

www.jyonnobitime.com/time
 

andywood

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#5
Great read as always! Well done, I love how your photo the HR keeps going up until the word "RESET" Ha ha ha!
Thanks for always reading.

Didn't notice the "reset"! Going form 80 to 180 HR is the hard part! On a short climb like that the HR keeps rising all the way.

I had a similar profile last week but the avereage was lower at 175 but the speed was faster (18:20 on a slightly longer course). Why? Who knows!

Usually I climb the other side of the mountain as a warm up but my mate didn't fancy it. I'll be doing that next year...

Andy

www.jyonnobitime.com/time
 

andywood

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#7
Mmmm, maybe I'm waiting for you to upgrade and give me yours! That's how most cycling kit ends up on my bike!

Maybe I'll take the plunge. But even if I trained with power, I don't think I'd race with power.

My mate Andrew got the best of me for the first time in a few years. It was like we slipped back to 2006. Now he trains on perceived effort only. Didn't even have a mobile phone until recently!

In hindsight I perhaps went too hard at the start, trying to follow the fastest guy, and faded at the end. But my plan was just to max it to the top. It's only 18 minutes,

I wasn't looking at the computer really. 18 minutes of pure pain. Which it was. And I enjoyed it!

But for time trials and even enduros a power meter would be handy. Let me know when you upgrade!!!

Andy

www.jyonnobitime.com/time
 

Sikochi

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Sep 13, 2010
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#8
Hmm, now you mention it, I would love one of those Pioneer Gen 2, but there`s no way I can justify it, given the cost or my level of cycling. If the Pro+ ever goes wrong again, I think an upgrade to a G3 will be the extent of it. I did recently upgrade to Ui2 but the old 105 is earmarked for the wife`s bike.

Actually, I tend not to use the powertap for racing, unless it`s for a TT where I use it with the disc cover, and the last time, I only looked at it once. I find knowing the data a hindrance rather than a help, and I`m better off just going by feel. I`ve come to the conclusion that I am best with a varied power approach, and trying to keep an even power is slower. With hill climbs not being a constant gradient, it`s also a faster approach. And the powertap isn`t the fastest wheel either. For yourself, then yes, it wouldn`t be any use when racing, as you have to follow wheels and hope you can hold on - riding to a fixed power will more likely see you dropped (unless you are in a breakaway).

For training though, invaluable, as obviously, there is no other accurate form of feedback, and it keeps me honest, though even then, I often do VO2 stuff on the mamachari which has no computer, using just the old `talk test`. But I do like my new Swissside Hadrons, so maybe I will do more of my endurance riding with them, and rely on breathing / talking even more. Trouble with talking to yourself is you get some strange looks, but at least no-one wants to draft you.

Funny you should say about the mobile phone, as I have only had a smart phone for 5 months now. That GPS is sure useful.
 

andywood

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#9
Sikochi,I hear mixed things about power training from friends. One thing I thought about is power training indoors on a minoura trainer with power or even a stationary bike. But I'd only stick with it in the winter as I love riding outdoors.

I hear you about costs. There always seems to be something I need more. At the moment I'm thinking about getting a mountain bike and doing some MTB races next year - I think my strengths (endurance and climbing) will be suited to it.

Anyway, thanks for the input as always!

Andy

www.jyonnobitime.com/time
 

theBlob

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Sep 28, 2011
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#11
For me the most useful aspect of the PM is when climbing, it is hard to quantify your output when you get up into higher RPE zones, so it is really useful to-
1) control my output when I am feeling good still.
2) force my output during those times when the gradient reduces and it becomes harder to maintain a higher output.

I think using it has definitely made me a stronger rider, and I certainly don't use it as effectively as I could.
And you can do everything I do without it but I think being able to objectively quantify things as I ride has allowed me to push harder and better understand the most effective way for me to be fast. (By that I mean faster than last years me)

I can look down at my output numbers and make decisions about what I need to do now to be in better shape, either time wise or physically in 5 or 10 or 20 minutes. Doesn't mean I can always achieve it, but at least I feel I know the way forward.
 

andywood

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#12
2) force my output...

That's a really good point. Especially for a heavier rider. To force their advantage when the gradient eases.

I've often thought it would be interesting to do a climb at a constant power output. I often do climbs at LT HR for example. But it's difficult to hold a constant HR unless it is a stiff climb or a pancake flat TT. But to hold a constant power output over rolling terrain would be good training for sure.

Andy

www.jyonnobitime.com/time
 

Sikochi

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Sep 13, 2010
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#13
Andrew's blog here always makes a good read too:
Thanks for that. Interesting that he went for the opposite approach to you. Which is best? Who knows? I`ve done both at times. Well done, I think I`d be pushed to break the 20 mins barrier on that course.

"Sunday before the race I rode the course twice, the second time at "near" race-pace. I wanted to be sure to keep my powder dry for RACE DAY. One week before is not the time to show off your form."
 

andywood

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#14
20 minutes is a very good time on that course!

The trouble is, as Andrew states, there is nowhere to recover. It's all about getting "in the zone". This is easy when you are riding with someone of similar ability and with shared interests. But more difficult in a race situation when you don't want to be dropped.

Personally I think one week before a race is a very good time to go hard at race pace. And if you can simulate a race on the same course, that's even better. We did that the week before and I set a PB of 18:20 (old PB was 19:04 way back in 2006... probably chasing Andrew!). Other riders were doing this as preparation for Norikura which was held on the same day as this race.

But Andrew is a wise old dog for sure. He knows how to get ready for races and can tweak his form quickly.

I remember when he won this race in 2006. 1 week before I beat him on the climb. He was off form as he had just come back from 3 weeks in the UK. 1 week later, he was flying....

Andy

www.jyonnobitime.com/time
 
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Sikochi

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#15
Usually, I do trial runs a week before, but like training, it`s close, but never quite 100%. I find that extra few % really takes a toll recovery wise. For instance, last night`s VO2 work was too hard, so today the back-to-back VO2 work had to be skipped and all riding was pegged below LT1/VT1.

20 minutes is a very good time on that course!
I remember when he won this race in 2006. 1 week before I beat him on the climb. He was off form as he had just come back from 3 weeks in the UK. 1 week later, he was flying....
With a performance gain like that, I`d be wondering if he got a package delivered by the English Post Office...;)
 

Sikochi

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#16
I wrote this previously, but couldn`t post it when the site was being updated.

The thing with power training is there is a learning curve involved, and if you`re used to training with HR, that might actually work out better, especially if you don`t fancy the learning curve. Plus, you have to be willing to change your training accordingly. As for HR, you do read stories of people who were fixed on HR, switched, and saw improvement. The problem with HR is just measuring improvement. As the saying goes, it tells you what is happening on the inside to produce the power, but not what is being produced. For me it has definitely been beneficial. As for constant power output climbing it was interesting watching the finale of the day before yesterday`s Vuelta - stage 15. Contdaor, Valverde and Rodriguez were putting in accelerations, then regrouping, whereas Froome was clearly just working to a wattage limit. By the end, Froome nearly pulled them back.

Indoor training with power might be a nice way into it. But then you can get mired into the polarized vs SST debate. If you choose a trainer that has a calibrated power curve, then you can calculate power from just speed. My Kurt Kinetic does that, but as I have the powertap anyway, it doesn`t really matter. But using your rollers with consistent equipment, wheels/tyre pressure.gives good feedback as to improvement - I think that was the Obree approach, as I think you know. Outdoor riding...don`t mention that to the wife but she complains as I have probably used the trainer less than a dozen times. Time just goes so slowly when I am on it, am I nearly there yet?, but on the road, i just don`t care about the time, except doing those intervals...again, am I there yet..please...please...please.

Anyway, thanks for the input as always!
Thanks, but I think you are being too kind. Maybe I will make it over to Niigata one day.
 
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andywood

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#17
Usually, I do trial runs a week before, but like training, it`s close, but never quite 100%. I find that extra few % really takes a toll recovery wise. For instance, last night`s VO2 work was too hard, so today the back-to-back VO2 work had to be skipped and all riding was pegged below LT1/VT1.



With a performance gain like that, I`d be wondering if he got a package delivered by the English Post Office...;)
Yes recovery is key. I actually did another hard effort on the Monday (a bit silly really) before easy rides on Tues, Wed, a very short spin on Thurs and two days of rest (if you can call it rest keeping Liam and Noel entertained).

I had good sensations on Sunday morning. And the heart rate responded well. I don't like to dwell, but in hindsight I went too hard at the start and faded at the end. I thought I had the condition to blast it from the start.

At Norikura in comparison, I got a better result by just riding at my own pace...

Nothing suspicious about Andrew! What always impresses me about Andrew is his ability to get race fit very quickly. He keeps a constant weight too with or without training. I think much of this is to do with so-called "muscle memory". He has been riding since a junior so his body knows how to respond and adapt.

Andy

www.jyonnobitime.com/time
 

andywood

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Apr 8, 2008
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#18
I wrote this previously, but couldn`t post it when the site was being updated.

The thing with power training is there is a learning curve involved, and if you`re used to training with HR, that might actually work out better, especially if you don`t fancy the learning curve. Plus, you have to be willing to change your training accordingly. As for HR, you do read stories of people who were fixed on HR, switched, and saw improvement. The problem with HR is just measuring improvement. As the saying goes, it tells you what is happening on the inside to produce the power, but not what is being produced. For me it has definitely been beneficial. As for constant power output climbing it was interesting watching the finale of the day before yesterday`s Vuelta - stage 15. Contdaor, Valverde and Rodriguez were putting in accelerations, then regrouping, whereas Froome was clearly just working to a wattage limit. By the end, Froome nearly pulled them back.

Indoor training with power might be a nice way into it. But then you can get mired into the polarized vs SST debate. If you choose a trainer that has a calibrated power curve, then you can calculate power from just speed. My Kurt Kinetic does that, but as I have the powertap anyway, it doesn`t really matter. But using your rollers with consistent equipment, wheels/tyre pressure.gives good feedback as to improvement - I think that was the Obree approach, as I think you know. Outdoor riding...don`t mention that to the wife but she complains as I have probably used the trainer less than a dozen times. Time just goes so slowly when I am on it, am I nearly there yet?, but on the road, i just don`t care about the time, except doing those intervals...again, am I there yet..please...please...please.



Thanks, but I think you are being too kind. Maybe I will make it over to Niigata one day.
Very good point about HR not measuring performance gains. So yes, you have to look at speed on the rollers, TT and HC times to gauge progress. Of course there are lots of variables which affect this.

I'm always using mates as a yardstick, can I beat him in the sprint? can I follow him on the climb? will he crack before me? But this is affected by even more variables!

Power is the ultimate training tool in this sense for sure.
To me honest I don't even use HR to its full potential. As a gauge of my effort in a hillclimb (but not so strictly) and for certain types of intervals. Mostly I use it for monitoring how fresh I am and to decide what kind of ride I should do to get myself in the right place for an upcoming race or even a big ride on the weekend.

I guess HR is the ultimate tool in this sense.

I'm not joking when I say I appreciate your input! It's always interesting reading your posts (and Doug's) which are so scientific to me (a scientist!). When I do finally get onto power, I'll be bugging you even more!

Andy

www.jyonnobitime.com/time
 

Sikochi

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#19
The price of power meters is coming down. This one brings the entry level down to $399 and looks like it will be as solid as anything else out there.
 

andywood

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#20
Cheers for that. Looks promising. How important is LEFT and RIGHT monitoring?

Double the price. I'm sure there are imbalances. But how good is a LR balanced power meter in helping you to correct this, as opposed to just doing one-legged drills on the trainer?

Andy

www.jyonnobitime.com/mt