New wheels for Christmas

Sikochi

Maximum Pace
Sep 13, 2010
1,185
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Kochi
As usual I have been following the discussions about which wheels are supposed to be under the Christmas tree with much interest. After countless spoke failures, flat tires and chained-trapped-between-cassette-and-spoke-ripping-the-rear-derailleur-hanger-in-pieces issues, I have decided that if it comes to wheels, the highest priority has to be given to reliability.

Don`t fancy the saddle :eek:

Anyway, imagine the size of the Christmas tree needed to fit those wheels under!
 

FarEast

Maximum Pace
May 25, 2009
5,528
538
193
Yokohama
Most probably written in jest but raises some things that should be answered.

After countless spoke failures,
Common cause for this is not getting factory built wheels serviced within the distance they stipulate in the manual or not following the weight restrictions that are placed on certain wheels.

Another common cause is DIY wheel trueing on wheels that require each spoke to have a set torque or tension on them.

flat tires,

Nothing to do with the wheel build unless the spoke holes are uncovered or spokes were not cut to length.


chained-trapped-between-cassette-and-spoke-ripping-the-rear-derailleur-hanger-in-pieces issues,
Poor maintenance or build when setting up the rear derailleur. Suggest you either have a professional set your bike up or change shop where you had it done
 

scandiman

Warming-Up
Aug 12, 2010
96
0
0
Ota-ku
LOL I leave you guys to it for a few days and multiple hijacking attempts follow. But some very interesting discussions nevertheless

Phil: Yes, I thought the Fulcrum wheels seemed quite durable also. You reckon more serviceable than Mavic?

Alan: Good point re saving up for something more amazing. Now, if I only would really need something more amazing :)

Kiwisimon: Yeah sorry with reactive I meant stiffer.

Desune: Thanks for the tips

MOB: I share Simon's dislike for the saddle but beyond that quite like the
set-up

Tim: Cheers for further thoughts on wheelsets. Again, nothing bad to say about the 6700 set. Btw, since I started the thread, I have experienced with raising the seat post slightly. This has actually made me rethink my comments on the 6700 not being "reactive".

Okay lads let the hijacking continue


Anyhoo - this thread is getting hijacked away from the original topic of spending Sandiman's Xmas bonus appropriately. But it does raise some interesting discussion points.

I did a direct comparison of our wheelset (same spoke and rim) only changing the hubs from an OE alloy costing $150/pr and handmade carbon (DASH) costing more than $1200 /pr. Here's what you get:

1) Weight reduction of about 150gr.
2) Integrated ceramic bearings.

Wheel price difference is about $2500. The DASH set is built one-off as a totally integrated set and matched rim by rim.

The result:

The DASH hubs roll slightly better than the alloys. Mainly due to the ceramic bearings and the 'free-er' free hub which offers very little resistance to coasting action. The DASH wheels have less than 1% variance in spoke tension and the alloys have less than 5%. Which means we can raise tension on the DASH sets to squeeze the maximum stiffness without exceeding the rim limits.

What will this do to your ride? Well besides the obvious BLING factor, you <may> shave a few precious seconds off a 20km Hill TT. Making the assumption that everything else remains constant. Including what side of the bed you woke up on. So, really, is there value in this kind of upgrade?

1) Group ride one-upness? - YES. Want to go bench racing, then this is what it takes.
2) Specialist out for stage wins? - YES. Those precious second(s) count.
3) Durability? - NO. In fact this is a fragile wheelset with weight limit of about 65kg. The materials used are designed for minimum weight and max performance. Your average mama-chari wheel will last far longer and support far greater loads.
4) Club rider advantage? NO. For the same reasons as (3) and also you need to have a very quiet riding style to extract the value. Most club riders hack away at their bikes and pedals like a mad farmer cutting cane with a broomstick. Atrocious. They'd beat the wheels to death in a single ride.

Personally - I like the idea of having 3 wheelsets to choose (and do):

1) Shimano WHR-501-A. Heavy, durable, rain, train. As Lance would say , "Throw another 10 on the warrior!".

2) 24mm Superlights for those clear days in the hills. Dancing never felt so good when your partner is light as a leaf blowing in the breeze!

3) 50mm Aero Hammers. Strong, versatile and slices through the wind when you need it most - generally that last 50km trudging against a 20kph headwind with nothing in the tank except a can of Real Gold and a few mango slices.

But for complete budget-inclusive goodness, I still think the 6700's are an awesome choice. And will continue to recommend this as my #1 go-to wheel for any full build. Outside of the 501A which is what I use for any econo-build.

For Scandiman - I'd suggest a set of 50mm's or 60's built on the 6700 or DA hubs with the Basalt Brake strip. You get reasonable weight, easy to service anywhere, bulletproof, aero and durability /strength due the higher spoke count. Then with the 6700 Alloys in the stable, he has 2 sets of funrolls. Or a mix and match. And if he really wants to play in the hills, I can just build a single 24mm front wheel that will alone knock a couple hundred grams from the wheel pair weight. Toss that baby on the front - and wham - it's like Pantani tossing his ear ring AND bottle at the Ventoux!
 

Phil

Maximum Pace
Phil: Yes, I thought the Fulcrum wheels seemed quite durable also. You reckon more serviceable than Mavic?
I couldn't say to be honest, as I've never broken a spoke on my Fulcrums (not bad considering how many other spokes I've broken.) Cartridge bearings are standard size and were easy to replace when they went kaput after a rainy 7-hour enduro and subsequent washing. Looking at them, the spokes look like standard j-bends, but that is on low-end 7s. Higher graded wheels might be different.
 

Malte

Maximum Pace
Sep 26, 2011
496
54
48
Tokyo
Hi guys, similar Christmas problem here.
My new bike would come with "DT Swiss R1500" wheelset but i could update for 330Euro to "Marvic Cosmic Carbon SL" wheels.

I have to admit that this investment would be for the look mainly :eek: (as I have said here before I don't believe in the aero-effects). Here is the optical difference:


Just I wounder how the marvic-hubs and rims are in regards to maintenance and durability for frequent training ride? Any experience?
 

AlanW

Maximum Pace
Jan 30, 2007
1,214
438
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Tokyo
Owen's got those Mavics so you could ask him.....my Ksyriums had the same hubs and lasted well. You have to keep an eye on the freewheel lubrication as it's only a bushing not a bearing, but that's just a 3 minute job every 3 months or so.

I've seen a lot of reviews saying the DT1500s are too flexible. For a powerful rider like you I would definitely go for the Mavic upgrade <edit: or spend the euros on some carbon tubulars from Tim>.
 

GSAstuto

Maximum Pace
Oct 11, 2009
945
242
103
tokyo
www.roadfixie.com
I'm down with Alan on this - DT makes some nice hubs - but they are on the HEAVY side, the spokes and rims are nothing to write home about. And over 700gr for the FRONT!? At 24mm, too! The veritable Shimano 6700's are a better generalized purchase all the way through! , I'd go for the Cosmic's in a heartbeat if that's your choice, though, for something a little more aero-effective and stiffer on the sprints.

BTW - Aero DOES count! At least once you get over 30-35kph. But so does a whole bunch more other details - like wind-up, stiffness (too much is not always good), shock absorption, braking, etc etc.

You guys gotta start looking at the whole dynamic system and not just focusing on a single component. The frame, wheels and rider all act together to make the machine what it is. Especially from a suspension POV this is very important. Ask any of the gearheads here what changing tire pressure 1-2psi will do? Or shock rebound pressure? Tire temp? Track conditions, on and on. Best thing is to test ALOT of different wheelsets until you dial in what works for YOU. Not just based on reviews, marketing and whatever hot sale is on. This will get you into a kind of 'comfort zone' - but actual choice needs to be much more personalized and data driven than just a ouija board.
 

FarEast

Maximum Pace
May 25, 2009
5,528
538
193
Yokohama
Totally agree , I raced 160km with 4000m of climbing on the Neil Pryde Diablo on mavic ksyrium elite wheels. At the end of the ride I was not impressed. I was sore and stiff and haven't felt like that for a very long time on a bike ( I ride a lot of different bikes)

2 weeks later I was at the same location on a different set of wheel, 50mm carbon clinchers and the ride was totaly different, yes it slightly effect the zing of the bike in the climbs but I felt the trade off for comfort over the distances I race was worth it, if you are in pain and stressed about it then you are burning calories and it all adds up, recovery for the next day is affected so with the wheel change out I was in heaven, could have kept going for ever on that combo.

And yes deep dish wheels (aero wheels) do have an effect on the ride thus why every serious TT rider or long stage rider uses them.
 

GSAstuto

Maximum Pace
Oct 11, 2009
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www.roadfixie.com
Calories count! Comfort IS important! It doesn't mean lack of performance - it means CONSTANT performance!! If you've ridden a 4hr enduro on a 165kph+ vintage motorcycle you'll know EXACTLY what I mean! Sorry - when your retina is detached and your hands are so numb you can't feel your toes - you are GONE! Same on a road bike - at the start of the day - everyone is fresh and full of 'you know what'. But bring it down to the 7th hour. And then the next day, and the next, and the next, and so forth. After about 6 of these, you'll come to appreciate 'comfort' . But, if you are a monthly rider who just hammers out a couple hours each time - then , tune for that. Otherwise - better to get your groove on the swing machine and enjoy!
 

Malte

Maximum Pace
Sep 26, 2011
496
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Tokyo
BTW - Aero DOES count! At least once you get over 30-35kph. But so does a whole bunch more other details - like wind-up, stiffness (too much is not always good), shock absorption, braking, etc etc.

You guys gotta start looking at the whole dynamic system and not just focusing on a single component. The frame, wheels and rider all act together to make the machine what it is. Especially from a suspension POV this is very important.
I have to get the wheels with the bike to qualify for the bundle price. So the wheels I want to select should be my everyday training wheels. I don't look too much at it from the aero or weight perspective. Robustness, look and sound are maybe my highest interests for now :eek:.

Haven't thought about comfort so far, I was used to ride one of these over-sized canondale alu bikes that was incredible stiff and liked it for it's directness. Also don't know what the Cosmic Carbon mean from a comfort standpoint?
 

patrick.yodar

Speeding Up
Jun 9, 2011
241
1
36
tokyo
sound? what do you mean by sound? any sound coming from your wheels is an indication of work energy getting lost in vibration. in most cases I'd think you'd want wheels that operate as quietly as possible. is this what you mean?
 

GSAstuto

Maximum Pace
Oct 11, 2009
945
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103
tokyo
www.roadfixie.com
Deep rims tend to act as a soundboard. I only wish you could pre-program them with bites from My Cousin Vinny.
 

Malte

Maximum Pace
Sep 26, 2011
496
54
48
Tokyo
sound? what do you mean by sound? any sound coming from your wheels is an indication of work energy getting lost in vibration. in most cases I'd think you'd want wheels that operate as quietly as possible. is this what you mean?
Those 50mm Carbon wheels make this "vrooom" sound when accelerating, I find that very motivating :cool:.
 

Sikochi

Maximum Pace
Sep 13, 2010
1,185
79
68
Kochi
Those 50mm Carbon wheels make this "vrooom" sound when accelerating, I find that very motivating :cool:.
You should get a Powertap then. It`s like having a whip and mother-in-law combined telling you to go faster. No prizes for guessing who is staying at our house this month...