New wheels for Christmas

GSAstuto

Maximum Pace
Oct 11, 2009
945
242
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tokyo
www.roadfixie.com
Incidentally - alot of the pro riders will use specific rims with different spoke and hub combos. Some of the most popular are using DA hubs, Sapim CX Ray with Edge / Enve rims. This is something we can also do quite easily. And we also have our main 38's and 50's in to UCI for approval in the same way.

As it happens - Ultegra and DA hubs are available in 28h rear as minimum spoke count, and 24h is their lowest front spoke count. No problem, we already have rimblanks drilled especially for Shimano Ultegra and DA hubs for exactly this reason!

Why? Many racers prefer the near silent running of Ultegra and Da hubs. Also, many stage racers prefer a few more spokes in their wheels to add a little more wind-up stiffness with no add harshness. Plus, they are more rugged and when you are beating the crap out of them on harsh roads, you want a wheel that will absolutely withstand anything you throw at it.

I'm building up some special CX wheels for a VIP rider - and you know what we are doing?? Ultegra Hubs with 38mm rims and Sapim Delta spokes. I could use anything - and this is THE CHOICE.

Again, just all depends on what you are building for.
 

FarEast

Maximum Pace
May 25, 2009
5,528
538
193
Yokohama
Actually Tim they aren't. Back in the day they would do this but now if SRAM, Shimano, Mavic, Campy are sponsoring for wheels they use those wheels exclusively. There is some overlap like Campagnolo owns Falcrum so for TT's teams that are sponsored by Campy for wheels will use Falcrum TT wheels. etc, etc.
 

Sikochi

Maximum Pace
Sep 13, 2010
1,185
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68
Kochi
Also HED, ZIPP, SRAM are all the same company using all the same products and are made by Novatec yet at massive markup. Also unless HED are supplying actual data to cover thier statement I would take it with a HUGE pinch of salt.
I`m not aware of this. I know SRAM bought out Zipp a while ago, but whilst Zipp and HED did share a rim-patent a while ago, now the toroidal patent has expired, the new rim shapes, Flamme Rouge vs Firecrest, are different, though performance wise, they are probably pretty identical.
 

GSAstuto

Maximum Pace
Oct 11, 2009
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Not ALL the teams are sponsored this way. And if you look closely you'll see alot of 'non standard' configurations. And especially many more high spoke count than you'd normally think. My point is that if you decouple the rim blank from the hub / spoke - you will get many more options and configurations. And especially if you're a specialist rider (alpine, sprint, etc) or even just a heavy guy - you want to match a wheelset to the discipline.

The way UCI works (and I know cause we are doing it now) is that once you have a series approved - then you are free to change hub / spoke and the wheel itself will still fall under the same 'series approval'. So - actually a rider could be riding, say SRAM 60's and then swap out the hubs for DA hubs as long as the spoke count is the same - it will still fly with UCI. Whether it would fly with SRAM, who knows - but my guess is as long as it's THEIR RIM, they probably won't complain too much - especially if the rider is winning stages.

For the privateer - it makes no difference about sponsorship. My main point is just don't get hung up on the wheelset as being something that cannot be configured to your tastes. I think we have at least 10 different hubs to pull from now, at least 4 different rim configurations in each depth plus at least 20 different spoke types from 3 mfg. This results in the ability to build the same basic spec wheel, say a 50mm carbon, in a wide price range.

For combo fast touring wheels I'm more interested these days in doing things like builds utilizing high performance dynamo hubs, discbrakes, high bearing counts AND deep rim. That has WAY more value to the average rider looking for a 2nd set or 3rd set of wheels, IMO, than trying to shave a few seconds off WADA or Oifuto. But, hey, if you want to do that - it can be done, too!

Actually Tim they aren't. Back in the day they would do this but now if SRAM, Shimano, Mavic, Campy are sponsoring for wheels they use those wheels exclusively. There is some overlap like Campagnolo owns Falcrum so for TT's teams that are sponsored by Campy for wheels will use Falcrum TT wheels. etc, etc.
 

onm

Sep 2, 2009
5
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Devaluing through commentary and action, the very market you are piggy-backing in an attempt to gain personal profit, with all this talk, must be weird for you, eh, Tim?
 

FarEast

Maximum Pace
May 25, 2009
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Yokohama
Tim.... yers what you are sayin is correct that they "Could" swap out parts and replace with other parts that are approved to ride UCI approved wheels of different config.

But the simple truth is they don't. If they are sponsored to ride SRAM's they ride pure SRAM wheels. Gone are the days where a team will put a sticker over the top of the original brand and ride them, also gone are the days of individual sponsorships.

Pro Tour sponsorship is big buisness and there is no way that teams can swap out a specific part that belongs to another brand an use it.

The only time you will see specailist wheels coming out to play are for the "Pave".

There are hiundreds of commentries on this topic by the Pro Tour mechanics dispelling this myth that riders can swap in and out specific parts made by other brands that don't sponsor the teams but sorry mate iits all not true.... back in the 90's yes but not any more. All you need to do is go through the millions of photos available of Pro Tour bikes in action and I bet you you won't find a single bike with specailist "Non-sponsored" kit on it.
 

ikedawilliams

Speeding Up
Oct 15, 2010
669
10
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Pro Tour sponsorship is big buisness and ... the only time you will see specailist wheels.

There are hiundreds of commentries on this topic by the Pro Tour mechanics dispelling this myth
Too funny. You should use that word more often :)
 

GSAstuto

Maximum Pace
Oct 11, 2009
945
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On the contrary, Owen. The market is large enough for all players. Who's 'piggy backing' ? One musn't be greedy at the plate in order to save room for dessert , which is best served cold.

The main points I'm trying to make are simply that rational choices with respect to technology and mechanics may and can be made outside the brand envelope. And, many people choose (more wisely) to do so.

Devaluing through commentary and action, the very market you are piggy-backing in an attempt to gain personal profit, with all this talk, must be weird for you, eh, Tim?
 

FarEast

Maximum Pace
May 25, 2009
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Tim nothing shady at all in that picture. At the time SKY was sponsored by PRO an off shot of SHIMANO a gold partner of SKY. At the time SKY did not have a wheel sponsor that made the appropriate TT wheels for Wiggins so PRO stepped in. All perfectly within the sponsorship agreement.
 

GSAstuto

Maximum Pace
Oct 11, 2009
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Actually those are HED's . The sponsor agreement stated that the riders could use any wheels or combos they preferred - as long as the vendor (non-Shimano) was not present. Hence - they used in many cases reworked HED's and slapped on these funky 'PRO'totype non-logos.

My point is that at many times, Pro teams are not specifically tied to a wheel sponsor (or other equipment) and the riders are free to choose and use whatever they want as long as it doesn't fall astray of the primary sponsor's guidelines - in this case - use what you like, just don't show their brand logo.

Tim nothing shady at all in that picture. At the time SKY was sponsored by PRO an off shot of SHIMANO a gold partner of SKY. At the time SKY did not have a wheel sponsor that made the appropriate TT wheels for Wiggins so PRO stepped in. All perfectly within the sponsorship agreement.
 

FarEast

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May 25, 2009
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Tim again I'm going to have to disagree. Those products were actual Shimano Pro R&D wheels that Team SKY were testing thus why you are now able to buy them, go take a look at the PRO product line.

Also I'm going to disagree that riders are free to choose I'm sorry but they aren't. I know this as fact because a freind who rides PRO TOUR sente a copy of his riders contract to look at in regards to the development of the JPT team I'm developing.

Obviously if the team is not tied to a wheel sponsor then 9/10 they will default to the Groupset for wheels but the days the team will choose one supplier and uniform the team. The days of riders selecting thier own kit and individual sponsorship is well and truely over.
 

GSAstuto

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Oct 11, 2009
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Have to agree to disagree with you, mate -

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/photos/mavic-and-pro-get-rolling-at-the-giro/119779

Not that this is the end all source - but those in the wings have mentioned as such. I do agree that the times are changing and the sponsors are much more attentive to the actual kit being used as opposed to back in the day when you'd simply stick whatever required label on the gear and ride what YOU want.

Come to the factory with me some time, and you'll see even funnier scenes as all the frames / rims coming off the line then just going to different 'brand assembly' stations. Especially the Italian makers and Japanese neutral frames. One brand's main section, another brand's rear section, etc. The only disctinction comes in the finish room. Same with the rim blanks.

Anyhoo - this thread is getting hijacked away from the original topic of spending Sandiman's Xmas bonus appropriately. But it does raise some interesting discussion points.

I did a direct comparison of our wheelset (same spoke and rim) only changing the hubs from an OE alloy costing $150/pr and handmade carbon (DASH) costing more than $1200 /pr. Here's what you get:

1) Weight reduction of about 150gr.
2) Integrated ceramic bearings.

Wheel price difference is about $2500. The DASH set is built one-off as a totally integrated set and matched rim by rim.

The result:

The DASH hubs roll slightly better than the alloys. Mainly due to the ceramic bearings and the 'free-er' free hub which offers very little resistance to coasting action. The DASH wheels have less than 1% variance in spoke tension and the alloys have less than 5%. Which means we can raise tension on the DASH sets to squeeze the maximum stiffness without exceeding the rim limits.

What will this do to your ride? Well besides the obvious BLING factor, you <may> shave a few precious seconds off a 20km Hill TT. Making the assumption that everything else remains constant. Including what side of the bed you woke up on. So, really, is there value in this kind of upgrade?

1) Group ride one-upness? - YES. Want to go bench racing, then this is what it takes.
2) Specialist out for stage wins? - YES. Those precious second(s) count.
3) Durability? - NO. In fact this is a fragile wheelset with weight limit of about 65kg. The materials used are designed for minimum weight and max performance. Your average mama-chari wheel will last far longer and support far greater loads.
4) Club rider advantage? NO. For the same reasons as (3) and also you need to have a very quiet riding style to extract the value. Most club riders hack away at their bikes and pedals like a mad farmer cutting cane with a broomstick. Atrocious. They'd beat the wheels to death in a single ride.

Personally - I like the idea of having 3 wheelsets to choose (and do):

1) Shimano WHR-501-A. Heavy, durable, rain, train. As Lance would say , "Throw another 10 on the warrior!".

2) 24mm Superlights for those clear days in the hills. Dancing never felt so good when your partner is light as a leaf blowing in the breeze!

3) 50mm Aero Hammers. Strong, versatile and slices through the wind when you need it most - generally that last 50km trudging against a 20kph headwind with nothing in the tank except a can of Real Gold and a few mango slices.

But for complete budget-inclusive goodness, I still think the 6700's are an awesome choice. And will continue to recommend this as my #1 go-to wheel for any full build. Outside of the 501A which is what I use for any econo-build.

For Scandiman - I'd suggest a set of 50mm's or 60's built on the 6700 or DA hubs with the Basalt Brake strip. You get reasonable weight, easy to service anywhere, bulletproof, aero and durability /strength due the higher spoke count. Then with the 6700 Alloys in the stable, he has 2 sets of funrolls. Or a mix and match. And if he really wants to play in the hills, I can just build a single 24mm front wheel that will alone knock a couple hundred grams from the wheel pair weight. Toss that baby on the front - and wham - it's like Pantani tossing his ear ring AND bottle at the Ventoux!
 

FarEast

Maximum Pace
May 25, 2009
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But Tim that's a collaboration between Shimamo and HED. Not one rider going off and doing his own thing.
 

FarEast

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May 25, 2009
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But im in agreement with you Tim that there are a lot of companies out there that buy open moulds whack some pretty stickers on them and then sell them on at massive profit margins.

Also Tim you are spot on in regards to "LEGO" bikes where parts are selected then bonded to create a frame or worse still buy a batch of open moulds give them a stunning finish and again add a massive profit margin.

The having been sponsored by Novetec, the worlds leader in wheel manufacturing and also Fuji one of the big 5 that makes bikes for the majority of companies tge whole branding because a little disapointing, kind of like knowing you're going to get socks for Christmas
 

m o b

Speeding Up
Jun 22, 2008
341
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Bremen
cyclitis.wordpress.com
Some thoughts

As usual I have been following the discussions about which wheels are supposed to be under the Christmas tree with much interest. After countless spoke failures, flat tires and chained-trapped-between-cassette-and-spoke-ripping-the-rear-derailleur-hanger-in-pieces issues, I have decided that if it comes to wheels, the highest priority has to be given to reliability.

 

Sikochi

Maximum Pace
Sep 13, 2010
1,185
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Kochi
If money really is no concern, you can get some good deals on the non-Firecrest Zipps as shops try to shift inventory.