Market Research

What is a reasonable price for a frame like this?

  • less than ¥70,000

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • between ¥70,000 and ¥100,000

    Votes: 2 25.0%
  • between ¥100,000 and ¥150,000

    Votes: 5 62.5%
  • between ¥150,000 and ¥180,000

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • over ¥180,000

    Votes: 1 12.5%

  • Total voters
    8
Oct 15, 2010
669
10
38
#1
Curious what people's opinions are on the attached frame and fork.

Quoted as being 1,215g
Double Butted Tubing (0.8-0.6-0.8mm)
Argon Welding
Full Carbon Fork
Grade 9 Titanium (contains 3.0% aluminum and 2.5% vanadium)
Cone Shaped Head Tube Design (stiffer and better steering)
Shimano BB-86 Bottom Bracket (assembly pressed into the frame)
5 year warranty on frame subject to normal use (shipping not covered)
Taiwan Manufacturer

In addition to the price ranges in the poll, I would also like to know:

What is your general opinion of Titanium bikes?
What is your opinion of the graphics on this model?
Would you just want the frame, frame and full carbon fork, or complete bike?
Do you think your opinion differs much from the typical Japanese market? If yes, how so?
 
Oct 15, 2010
669
10
38
#3
Ha. I have not seen it in red, but I did stumble across this model on Wiggle for over ¥250,000. I will admit the paint is a little nicer on it, but other than that, seems to be the exact same fork and frame. http://www.wiggle.co.uk/dedacciai-titanium-k19-2012/

After sticking GSAstuto wheels/carbon seat/carbon stem on it, a titanium post and some carbon bars on it... white tape, white cable housing, I think it would be looking pretty fast.
 
Oct 15, 2010
669
10
38
#5
I went with the list price, before the 10% off. I really want to know about the other frame though. Is it cool? Do you think it would be popular in Japan? Much appreciated.
 

TOM

Maximum Pace
#6
Ha. I have not seen it in red, but I did stumble across this model on Wiggle for over ¥250,000. I will admit the paint is a little nicer on it, but other than that, seems to be the exact same fork and frame. http://www.wiggle.co.uk/dedacciai-titanium-k19-2012/

After sticking GSAstuto wheels/carbon seat/carbon stem on it, a titanium post and some carbon bars on it... white tape, white cable housing, I think it would be looking pretty fast.
Definitely cool and appropriately priced too...I'd say GO FOR IT :cool:! BTW, titanium looks best "raw" and it requires no protective paint layers (only adds weight). Scratches can be so easily erased using the green side of a scotch brite sponge and the frame will always look brand-new.
 

kiwisimon

Maximum Pace
Dec 14, 2006
2,681
494
103
Japan
#7
Titanium is great if it fits, those TT lengths look short in the bigger sizes.
Graphics, WTF are those? Won't make you faster but the wrong ones will make you look like a douche. Price, better direct those questions to Tim, he's playing in the market. Oh and red is scientifically proven to be the fastest color, for men.
 
May 22, 2007
3,617
1,454
143
Kawasaki
halffastcycling.com
#8
What is your general opinion of Titanium bikes?
Fantastic. I don't know why they're not more popular.​
What is your opinion of the graphics on this model?
Unimaginative.​
Would you just want the frame, frame and full carbon fork, or complete bike?
The fork doesn't match the style of the bike.​

Honestly, I think the bike looks boring. Nothing original. Why is it wearing a white diaper around the BB? Take the white off. Reduce the size of the graphics on the top tube. Change the color of the huge HASA graphic on the down tube to nearly-titanium gray. The one thing I like is the riveted metal badge on the head tube.
 

bird

Speeding Up
Nov 30, 2010
322
18
38
Kawasaki
#9
Now that Mike mentions about fork... why are there so few Ti forks in the market? If the characteristic, the beauty, and the longevity of Ti frame are well worth its higher manufacturing cost, why not the same investment to forks? Why all carbon?

I know there are some, but what about Lynskey, Litespeed, etc??

Personally, I think it's more natural to use the same material for frame and fork for matched characteristics. I don't think carbon forks are always superior in every way... I would never exchange my stainless straight blade fork on my Gazelle with a carbon fork.
 

GSAstuto

Maximum Pace
Oct 11, 2009
945
242
103
tokyo
www.roadfixie.com
#10
Well, first off, having quite a few years experience in both the bike frame biz AND business in TW / China

1) I'd question the frame is actually built in TW - it looks like a typical Baoliu Industry. But , you'd simply have to go there to determine - not that's bad or anything - but knowing the exact source of your frame is important.

2) Grade 9 (3AL/2.5) is what all mfg use for cold rolled tubing. So - nothing special there. We actually use different grade(s) and composition depending on tube choice and most importantly the 'hard parts' like dropouts, headtube, BB, stays. Key point is the tubing actually ASTM graded? Or is it from a non-graded foundry? There are only a few foundrys that provide seamless COLD DRAWN Ti tubing, btw.

3) I notice they are using a standard non-replaceable dropout. This is less expensive , but a major hassle when you drop your bike. Try to get THAT repaired anywhere. On a Ti bike, at least in Japan, you have basically 'bricked it'. We use custommade dropouts from harder Ti material and then fit with a sacrificial hanger which is easily (and commonly) available. Costs more - but you avoid a say, $500+ repair fee.

4) I can't say anything about the actual weld quality because I haven't seen it. This is the most critical part of any Ti frame. The tolerance for error is close to zero. Regardless what gas they use to shield - the preparation, cleanliness and skill of welding is very very important to the structual integrity of the frame. Do you want to sit your butt down on a frame that may explode under you whilst travelling at 60kph?

5) Painting Ti is awful. It will eventually scrape or peel off. You need to powdercoat or anodize coat it. That costs about 30,000 yen, btw. So , unless the color finished bike is at least 30,000 yen more than the raw bike, the chances are that you are just getting a water based epoxy finish that will slide off your frame in about a year's time.

6) The generic geometry is pretty OK. They've put these more on the aggresive side than typical - so , you'll have a frameset that may feel a bit twitchy and low to some riders. However it may feel great to those who are already comfortable with a more race position.

7) Carbon fork is fine. But you need to match it carefully to the frameset. It can change everything about how the bike performs and handles. The 'cone' or asymetic bearing does nothing, really. Alot of newer bikes have gone this route - then now scale back a bit because, low and behold, increasing the lower bearing size increases the frontal area of the bike which increases wind resistance. There is some slight benefit load distribution on the bearing which may result in slightly more solid feel - but honestly, after riding both ways - I felt far more effects by the fork blades themselves than the bearing supports. And if you use a high precision machined integrated headset, you will have very solid steering. So - this is why you either use a line bored headtube with external high precision cups (like Chris King, etc) or a higher hardness precision machined fully integrated headtube (my preference).

There are lots of good factories suppliers in Asia. However building a reliable, serviceable product is a major challenge. Bear in mind few, if any of these factories test their products to failure - and I doubt ANY actually ride the bikes at all.

I'll limit the amount of shameless plugging - but from a very reality POV - reducing risk on all levels of purchase, performance and service is quite challenging.
 
Oct 15, 2010
669
10
38
#11
Thanks for all the feedback. It is much appreciated as always.

The graphics are an attempt to differentiate in the market as there are more and more companies putting out nude Ti frames these days.

Ti forks can be made if there is demand, but may be a little heavier and less stiff than carbon.

It might not show it in the photo, but the bike comes with a replaceable rear hanger (dropout) on the current frame design with the same graphics.

They say the only broken record on their Ti-frames is merely on the seat tube, due to the seat post is being drawn too high and exceeding the limit line.

The guy I have been in touch with does ride and showed a photo of a Ti fork he is going to put on his MTB shortly. It was a little reassuring that he shares some passion for bikes as well.

Decisions, decisions...
 

kiwisimon

Maximum Pace
Dec 14, 2006
2,681
494
103
Japan
#12
Sounds like you are 80% decided. What is happening with the Bianchi? Maybe Evans will give you credit towards another frame. Ti?

The frames are selling in Aus for about 1200$ http://www.cyclingdeal.com.au/buy/hasa-titanium-road-bike-frame-and-fork/TI800F

No dealer in Japan so I would be looking to pay less than 10 man. As far as differentiating from nude Ti frames the best way to do that is ride it fast. But it is personal taste, personally putting white down near the dirtiest location on a bike doesn't make sense to me. But it might remind you to clean your bike:p.
 
Oct 15, 2010
669
10
38
#13
Sounds like you are 80% decided.
Yah, about 80% decided on Ti. I enjoy taking care of my bike, but I want something that I don't have to worry about - corrosion, bumps and bruises etc. Ready to throw the dice.

What is happening with the Bianchi? Maybe Evans will give you credit towards another frame. Ti?
Don't get me started on Evans. Since you ask though, I was finally able to get it to them through UPS on Friday afternoon (a week after it was supposed to go out) and early today, it was miraculously listed as being in the UK. Now I will wait for them to respond on the matter. I did mention to them that I am very disappointed in the Bianchi brand after this incident and don't want the same frame - pushing for a cash settlement. They said they would need to inspect the frame first, and that is understandable.

Yah, shown as 50% off regular price. Looks like a deal. Apparently Cyclingdeal has been doing pretty good with them recently.

No dealer in Japan so I would be looking to pay less than 10 man. As far as differentiating from nude Ti frames the best way to do that is ride it fast. But it is personal taste, personally putting white down near the dirtiest location on a bike doesn't make sense to me. But it might remind you to clean your bike:p.
No dealer in Japan? I am willing to have a crack at it: www.hasajapan.com. It seems that once most people have a Ti bike in their stable, they don't regret it, and there may be huge potential here once the Japanese market starts to realize that even though it is not used in the TDF, it may be the best match for their needs. The source requires minimum orders, so if you want one or know anyone who does, be sure to let me know.
 

Sikochi

Maximum Pace
Sep 13, 2010
1,181
76
68
Kochi
#15
Planet X do some very good value Ti bikes. They are made (I believe) by one of the big Ti makers but I can`t remember who, and I think it might have changed recently as well. Shipping is 80 GBP to Japan. You have to watch their `SRAM Red` etc builds, as often it is just one or two parts that are Red and the rest is lower spec.

Bikes
http://www.planet-x-bikes.co.uk/bikes/q/drop-bar-road-bikes/ti-bikes/
Frame
http://www.planet-x-bikes.co.uk/i/q/FRPXTIPROVNBR/planet-x-ti-pro-road-frame

PS: Just looked at the graphics on the Hasa Ti Frame - how to detract from a frame. Makes Cervelo`s graphic designers look good.
 
Oct 15, 2010
669
10
38
#17
kiwisimon - Nice looking bike! Thanks for the tip on making sure I can sell before ordering. They don't want to sell less than 3 of any item to start, (later, 5) which is not that bad, but could be better. There is another source that sells nude frames for cheaper, they only want me to order 2 of the same, and they have a lot of seat posts, stems, forks and bolts etc. The lead time with HASA is pretty long - up to 60 days. The other source is about half that.

Sikochi - I checked out the frames. They look nice and about the same as the low-end Enigma on Wiggle or the Lynskey Cooper on sale direct from the manufacturer. Good prices and not as risky. Still kind of tempted to get something from Taiwan or China, check it out, and try and get a side business going here. Something for me to think about anyway for the next month that I am without a road bike.
 

Sikochi

Maximum Pace
Sep 13, 2010
1,181
76
68
Kochi
#18
Sikochi - I checked out the frames. They look nice and about the same as the low-end Enigma on Wiggle or the Lynskey Cooper on sale direct from the manufacturer. Good prices and not as risky. Still kind of tempted to get something from Taiwan or China, check it out, and try and get a side business going here. Something for me to think about anyway for the next month that I am without a road bike.
I think Lynskey might well be the manufacturer, just can`t remember. For sure, it will be cheaper buying them direct from the manufacturer. Have you checked out XACD? If you check out RoadBikereview, they seem to be the most mentioned `alternative` Ti maker. Many, many threads.
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bikes-frames-forks/chinese-titanium-frames-237368.html
http://www.xacd.com.cn/product.asp?rootcl=1#

Good luck with your business venture.
 
Oct 15, 2010
669
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38
#19
I checked XACD, and the main point of contact, a guy called Libing, said to google him if I wanted more info, and ironically, there was a list of people warning to stay away. They guy seems to be psycho. Spam emails - aggressive etc. Some people seem satisfied, but my limited experience with him leaves something to be desired. Many others said his frames often broke or had stuff in the wrong places.

I need to get some prices on the www.hasajapan.com website and figure out how to get listed on Kakaku, Rakuten and Yahoo Auctions Japan. Need to get the web traffic up. Open to any ideas.