Lance gives up?

jdd

Maximum Pace
Hardest Crash
Jul 26, 2008
2,519
650
133
Kanazawa
#1
"Lance Armstrong is giving up his fight against the latest wave of charges by the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, which will likely rule that the seven-time Tour de France winner is a cheater who should be banned from cycling for life and stripped of his titles.

Armstong, who never tested positive during his career, has denied using performance enhancing drugs. Armstrong, who retired last year, won the sport's ultimate contest from 1999-2005.

“There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, 'Enough is enough.' For me, that time is now,” Armstrong said in a statement released on his website. "I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in winning my seven Tours since 1999. The toll this has taken on my family and my work for our foundation and on me leads me to where I am today -- finished with this nonsense.” "

(LA Times)
 
Jan 14, 2007
2,516
213
83
Noda
japanichiban.com
#3
Lets say he didn't cheat for arguments sake.
It has been proven that a lot of his team mates did dope and they were so strong that they delivered Lance to his victories.
Not clean wins.
He should acknowledge that...

I also believe that listening to his interviews over the years...nobody has really pushed him.

'Did you dope?'

His answers to these questions are not direct.

'I have never doped.'

What is his definition of doping?

I believe that he thinks injecting your own blood back into your own body is not doping. His definition of doping is about drugs.

The questions should be more direct.

'Have you ever injected blood or blood products into your body?'.
 

FarEast

Maximum Pace
May 25, 2009
5,528
538
193
Yokohama
#4
Thing is if you are innocent you would keep fighting - infact you would be helping the investigation in every way possible to prove you are innocent. If the WADA turned up tomorrow on my door step to ask for a sample I would do everything possible to prove that not only was the sample clean but invite them to take a look around the house, check out the supplements I’m taking and take a peak in my fridge and freezer.

Lance sadly on the other hand threatened, dirtied the waters, sued and threw money at the situation to make it go away.

Also the fact that pretty much 90% of Lance’s team mates over the past decade have come forward and admitted to doping or to being a part of systematic doping and conspiracy to dope within the teams doesn’t make his case that water tight anymore – especially as now some of the most respected names in cycling have started to come forward to give evidence and testaments that he was part of the larger picture.

Like I’ve said before the equipment you need for blood packing, storage of blood and PED’s isn’t something you can hide under the bed (or throw out of a hotel window in the hope nobody sees)

I know many will say “What’s the point in pursuing this?” but there are a lot of talented cyclists out there from the 80’s and 90’s who’s dreams and aspirations were destroyed for the simple fact that they didn’t cheat and I’m sure they feel somewhat vindicated. Also with the growing number of checks outside of professional racing the message is coming across strong and clear – if you cheat we will catch you.............eventually.

I would like to point out that the statement of Lance never failing a blood test is false, he has failed twice in his professional career and both times had the tests invalidated. Also part of the USADA investigation is to the statements from doctors and team mates that he failed other out of competition tests and had them covered up.
 

kiwisimon

Maximum Pace
Dec 14, 2006
2,681
494
103
Japan
#5
Good reply James and pretty much what I think.
The fact that all the others also covered in the same investigation have either plead guilty or are seeking arbitration speaks volumes.
 
Jun 9, 2011
241
1
36
tokyo
#6
james, aren't the charges all related to past behavior? if the front door lance's house doesn't have a time slip feature i don't see how he can defend himself in the way you're suggesting.

i don't see how this is good for anyone. surely the majority of the winners in pro cycling for that last 30 or 40 years were doping to some extent. and not just the winners.
 

FarEast

Maximum Pace
May 25, 2009
5,528
538
193
Yokohama
#7
Teams were constantly taking and storing blood samples throughout riders careers to gauge performance, LT and other indicators of training boosts so that they can see what worked and what didn't, many of them are stored at independent facilities and such and I'm sure that many of these samples are still available for testing.

Also the fact that the WADA and USADA have their samples that they have gone back over and have built a case against Lance and other team members.

Also there is all the power data taken from professional races and these could also be submitted to show gradual or steady increases in performance but again nothing has ever been submitted or published to discredit allegations.

As Edogawakikkoman states the responses have always been "I've never failed a doping test" which is true however not once has he ever stated "I've never posted positive for PED's".

In regards is this good for anyone?

I would have to say it’s good for the sport - Why is Professional cycling the only sport where Doping is big news? Because doping in the sport was so out of control and flaunted that the knee jerk reaction to anyone winning was “He must have doped”

A clean field means that potential sponsors won’t worry about the potential risk of their brand being damaged, especially those outside of the industry.

It also sends a very loud message to the next generation, not just for fair play but also health reasons. If you follow the professional cycling world outside of competition you will know that there have been several deaths and hospitalization that are suspected to be the results of heavy and symmetric doping.

But at the end of the day for me I race and I personally would like to feel secure that the guy that blew me away last weekend did so 100% naturally rather than feel cheated because I suspect that he was using PED's.
 

FarEast

Maximum Pace
May 25, 2009
5,528
538
193
Yokohama
#8
Another point is that this isn't something that has happened overnight - rumors, suspision have beeen circulating within the Professional peloton as well as the press in regards to Lance, teams and doctors for the past decade, surely after his second come back and the allegations he would have again done everything within his power to prove it was 100% natural?

Garmin and HTC did and the PR they got from doing it was excellent!
 

Sikochi

Maximum Pace
Sep 13, 2010
1,181
76
68
Kochi
#9
Basically, I read it as a very smart move, as my understanding (correct me if I`m wrong) is that it stops USADA`s proposed hearing taking place, so Lance avoids all the evidence against him being aired, with the possibility of it being leaked into the public domain. And maintaining that only the UCI can sanction him, makes him appear as if he is on the higher ground. The question is, why would he rather have UCI than USADA handle the case/sanction him?...I shall refrain from posting the allegations regarding this issue.

Cycling will be a better place if the UCI goes.
 

jdd

Maximum Pace
Hardest Crash
Jul 26, 2008
2,519
650
133
Kanazawa
#10
"symmetric doping"

I googled that but only got what appeared to be a lot of electrical engineering jargon...

What is it?
 

FarEast

Maximum Pace
May 25, 2009
5,528
538
193
Yokohama
#11
Basically, I read it as a very smart move, as my understanding (correct me if I`m wrong) is that it stops USADA`s proposed hearing taking place, so Lance avoids all the evidence against him being aired, with the possibility of it being leaked into the public domain. And maintaining that only the UCI can sanction him, makes him appear as if he is on the higher ground. The question is, why would he rather have UCI than USADA handle the case/sanction him?...I shall refrain from posting the allegations regarding this issue.

Cycling will be a better place if the UCI goes.
Sikochi - many people I know in the industry are thinking in exactly the same way and praying something does happen as there are certain people they would like to see removed from power.
 

Sikochi

Maximum Pace
Sep 13, 2010
1,181
76
68
Kochi
#12
A clean field means that potential sponsors won’t worry about the potential risk of their brand being damaged, especially those outside of the industry.
This for me is the issue, doping was unofficially tolerated for way too long and it was only when it became apparent that sponsorship/TV revenue, and hence the financial viability of the sport, was at stake that anything was done (or appeared to be done). Trouble is, this allowed doping to become ingrained, and IMHO it will be another generation before you will be able to consistently have faith in what you are watching...which of course, depends on whether you see cycling as sport or entertainment.

I would have to say it’s good for the sport - Why is Professional cycling the only sport where Doping is big news? Because doping in the sport was so out of control and flaunted that the knee jerk reaction to anyone winning was “He must have doped”
Trouble is, watching the Tour De France and now the Vuelta, I still get this thought :(
 

FarEast

Maximum Pace
May 25, 2009
5,528
538
193
Yokohama
#13
I have to say seeing some of the power data from some of the stages especially Jen Voigt's win has redeemed some of my belief that things are getting better.

In regards to your comments about doping being unofficially tolerated absolutely spot on mate! +1
If you are just a weekend warrior that likes to sit and watch grand tours with the excitement of riders blasting up 3000m at 600w averages then yes I guess you lose out.
 

theBlob

Bokeh master
Sep 28, 2011
2,865
1,451
129
...
#14
Shame he still can't stand up and take some responsibility. Instead he says he's giving up and blames his family for it. What a guy!

Perhaps the governing bodies should declare an amnesty for all riders up to this year to publicly admit they doped. And anyone they catch from now is banned for life. Do you think that would put an end to it?
 

Sikochi

Maximum Pace
Sep 13, 2010
1,181
76
68
Kochi
#16
I have to say seeing some of the power data from some of the stages especially Jen Voigt's win has redeemed some of my belief that things are getting better.
I agree with you there, things are definitely getting better. Still just a few too many `too good to be true` rides for my liking.
 

j-sworks

Maximum Pace
Feb 5, 2012
1,199
48
68
Tokyo
#17
Who cares, there are so many cases that it is just a waste of time to discuss motives as I'm sure they vary considerably for each individual.

For instance, what is the motivation of some random dude or woman taking roid's? --> who knows and who cares. They have their reasons and thats that, magnify these pressures by oh... about a pro tour racer's salary, and we can possibly understand what these guys are facing. Oh and the pressures of family, prying media, corporate sponsors, and coaches.

The point for me is this, I enjoy the sport, watching the races, and learning about the traditions and history of cycling (road and in general), and finally I support their right to some privacy and respect so I for one feel the speculation is useless. They entertain us in a similar fashion as does a movie star, yet there are those that put road bike racer's on a pedistul, but this level of stringency does not extend to mountain bikers. It seems to more of a social issue than anything else.

If I ever met Lance I would congratulate him on an impressive career, and comment on how is books got me feeling a little better while I was in the hospital and away from biking for about 10 months.

I say, don't waste time caring about what naysayers and rule happy bench warmers think or propagate, Lance dedicated his life to his sport and that's an accomplishment in itself, and it's too bad that the top athletes in any sport cannot compete without having to enhance their already superb abilities.
 
Jun 9, 2011
241
1
36
tokyo
#18
At this point i don't think the facts are all that important and tend to agree with this statement.

"From the beginning, however, this investigation has not been about learning the truth or cleaning up cycling, but about punishing me at all costs. I am a retired cyclist, yet USADA has lodged charges over 17 years old despite its own 8-year limitation."

a big part of the argument against lance seemed to have been "everyone was doing it." if that's the case, what's going to happen with the 2nd place guys who will be promoted? equivalent investigations for them, too? i really hope so or this will have accomplished nothing.
 

jdd

Maximum Pace
Hardest Crash
Jul 26, 2008
2,519
650
133
Kanazawa
#19
...

a big part of the argument against lance seemed to have been "everyone was doing it." if that's the case, what's going to happen with the 2nd place guys who will be promoted? equivalent investigations for them, too? i really hope so or this will have accomplished nothing.
+3...!

And if they don't find anyone clean enough to give a title to?
 

kpykc

Speeding Up
Jun 13, 2007
804
4
38
39
Tokyo
#20
+3...!

And if they don't find anyone clean enough to give a title to?
As it was noted somewhere else - the first 13 places of the TdF 2002 are all convicted dopers at some point of their careers. Don't know if it's true, but what about number 14 then? He is so low in GC, he might have never been tested, despite being actually doped?

UPDATE: oh yes, it's not true about the first 13 places - I guess it will be Carlos Sastre, who will inherit all these titles now