Race Kawasaki Enduro 10/14

WattsUp

Maximum Pace
Dec 9, 2017
146
92
58
#81
Would you believe there was only 1 beer in the fridge last night and the wife wanted half?!
I was totally kicking myself, because I was going to bring a couple bottles of my own beer (I brew my own) for us after the race, and forgot about them in the fridge! Grrr. My Much Better Half says hi, btw, she's sorry she didn't get to see you after the race (they were off bringing the bikes back and such).

Also, reading about that breakfast makes me hungry.
 
Likes: wexford

wexford

Maximum Pace
Jul 3, 2012
1,129
721
133
Tokyo
#82
@WattsUp - to answer this puzzle, it helps to remember that I am super human... Or maybe not. But yes, Outside, particularly on mad training rides where I hit it hard (or others hit me hard) , I seem to end up with higher numbers than I do inside.

Some facts before we jump in.
1. I recently switched my trainer from a Lemond Revolution to a Kickr2018. I'm still getting used to the different feel and characteristics.
2. Last FTP test I did was on the kickr and it was also my first test on it.
3. I used the TrainerRoad Ramp test to do the test.
4. I used a low gear (important point I think)
5. My Power Meter is PowerTap P1 (left and right) pedals.
6. Right pedal is broken so left pedal is doubling the power currently of my left leg (behaving like a P1s)
7. As Right pedal is broken, they will no longer let me do a software zero reset/calibration but maybe this just affects things a few watts either way.

Having read up a bit on the kickr, I think I will do better with a higher gear on the ramp test as there will be more inertia in the flywheel. So I want to re-test. I also was coming off 2 weeks of being sick when I took that test.

I have ridden a TrainerRoad workout with it controlling the kicker while letting the power on my P1s drive Zwift, so I have been able to see how the P1s map to the Kickr over a few sessions. Basically, the kickr seems to read a bit lower 5-10W perhaps. But it also seems to vary based on the gear. I've now decided to do all kickr/TR rides in top chain ring and 4th cog in from the wheel which should give me good consistency.

Anyway, I do think I do a lot better outside than inside and its not really cooling related but perhaps how the bike moves underneath me as well as the joy of the open road or the battle in hand.

I had a few rides in Ireland in August where I buried myself. Here's an example of a solo ride on a different bike with the same P1 pedals. Note that this ride, I still had the higher FTP which was 256 (again measured using the ramp test but it was actually measured using the P1 pedals on the Lemond). This was a windy day. Wind was against me on the way out and with me'ish on the way back (slightly different route back) Two stops with the second one for some food while admiring a beach :)

Screen Shot 2018-10-15 at 22.40.54.png

As this one was solo (on the road) and mostly no big stops as there are no cars in Ireland, I guess its a good example of an FTP test except that I wasn't just going for a 20 minute effort which may or may not have been a bit harder. Anyway, 20min was 289, 30min was 287W and 45min was 277W for that ride. Pace dropped off after 45 as I was basically warming down.

I'd say my PM is reading a little high though. I still get my ass handed to me every Tuesday morning and I don't think I'd survive a TrainerRoad workout at those numbers. Guess I could try and find out though.

I guess the main thing is to figure out what FTP to put in TR so that the hard workouts hit me hard, the tempo ones keep me at tempo and the endurance ones keep me at endurance pace.

So, given that my legs are still dead from Sunday, I'm taking this week a little easier and will do a ramp test either Wed or Thur and then I'll try a 20 minute FTP test the weekend and see where it gets me.

Incidentally, 272W would put me at 4w/kg which would be very satisfying if it were true. One can dream.

> Re if you did 275 for an hour

Well, NP (normalized power) was 271 for *two hours*. Although NP from efforts on a course like yesterday can be a bit mis-leading (over 16 laps, you had to slow way down and then sprint 32 times around the hairpin curve, which skews things a bit).

And TSS for two hours was...268 (!!) By definition the max TSS you can get in an hour is 100, so 268 TSS in two hours is..., you know, impossible. And the IF (intensity factor) of 1.13 (by definition, max IF is 1.00) is also evidence that something's off - either inaccuracy of the power being measured during the ride, or (more likely) the FTP number in the software. The chart you posted puts FTP at 239, which most definitely can't be right, since that's lower than my current FTP...

Your average power for two hours was 249, so FTP - if we define it as 'the highest power you could maintain in a quasi-steady state for 40-70 minutes' - is probably closer to 280, more likely closer to 300, I'd guess. If you're not getting a number like that from the TR ramp test, I wonder if there's a trainer inaccuracy, or maybe you're better off with the 20-minute (or longer) test protocol?

Incidentally, I had TSS of 169, IF was 0.92 and average power for the two hours of 210, which matches what I'd expect with an FTP of 250, given that I wasn't going all out for the two hours.
 
Likes: WattsUp

wexford

Maximum Pace
Jul 3, 2012
1,129
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133
Tokyo
#83
If you're doing to do an FTP test indoors, crank the AC and use an industrial fan... You're generating something like three times as much heat as your pumping into your trainer. So at 300 watts, that's (probably) 900 watts of heat. A space heater on full blast, essentially.

I bought a 6000-yen industrial fan just for training; it's more powerful on "low" than my regular fan is on "high." Haha.
Yeah, recently I have been using AC at 20 degrees and I have a big industrial fan too which is too loud but does a good job of keeping me cool.
 

WattsUp

Maximum Pace
Dec 9, 2017
146
92
58
#84
@wexford very interesting stuff. I'm now about half-way through the second bottle of homebrew that I had meant for us (although I guess you were driving so you probably couldn't have enjoyed it at the event yesterday in any case) so apologies if this is slightly more incoherent than usual.

I have the Favero Assioma pedals, they tend to read about 8-10 watts lower than my Kickr (2017). I use power-matching on TR, and also ensure SufferFest and Zwift use the Assioma pedals as well, so my power is consistent from indoors and outdoors.

I don't have any experience with the P1s, so don't know what (if any) impact there would be from not being able to calibrate and only being able to double the left pedal. I agree that the difference shouldn't be -that- significant. The Kickr is accurate to 1-2%, so as long as you're getting similar readings (within 10 watts or so) you're probably fine. I would double-check that this is the case, however.

That ride in Ireland as well shows NP of 287 for 1:42, and average power of 266, which I think includes a 5-minute break and a 15-minute break. But even after this break you then spent the last 50 minutes or so well over FTP. That's impressive, having already ridden at or above FTP for an hour, even with a recovery.

Assuming the power data itself is accurate - eyeballing it, I think your FTP (again, if we define it as 'maximum power at quasi-steady state for 40-70 minutes) is definitely closer to 280, maybe 290, than it is to 250. Hell, my FTP based on a recent 20-minute test is 255, and you'd crush me like a grape. You're a slim guy, my guess is that you would absolutely be a killer on the hillier courses. The course yesterday was pretty much pancake flat, which would negate your w/kg advantage. Maybe you should do the Fuji Hill Climb next year?

If you can average 277w for 45 minutes, a TrainerRoad workout with FTP set at 280 should be do-able, but that's definitely one way to confirm it - load up a one-hour sweet-spot workout and see how it goes.

For me to get to 4 w/kg, I need to either find another 80 watts or lose another 20 kg (!!).
 

wexford

Maximum Pace
Jul 3, 2012
1,129
721
133
Tokyo
#85
@WattsUp - ok fair is fair. I teased you with my breakfast and now you are teasing me with homebrew. I tried using PowerMatch on TR a little but I didn't like the feeling at the beginning of a new interval where it seems to have make things too easy or more likely too hard at first and then re-adjust after a few more seconds. I'd prefer just to concentrate on simple power requirements so am sticking with kickr direct until it improves.

I did do the Fuji Hillclimb back in 2016. I ended up with 1h18m so missed silver by 3 minutes :-( Apparently, to get silver you need to be at 4w/kg :) But yeah. I am thinking that I'd like to do that hillclimb again next year.

Will try and figure out my FTP a bit more and try to get my numbers more accurate. In the mean time I'll also be on the look out for a 20min section of pavement to do it outside but I really haven't found much in Tokyo. There is always someone or something in the way and to be safe it requires slowing down or stopping.
 

baribari

Maximum Pace
May 28, 2010
730
283
83
Fukushima
#86
Will try and figure out my FTP a bit more and try to get my numbers more accurate. In the mean time I'll also be on the look out for a 20min section of pavement to do it outside but I really haven't found much in Tokyo. There is always someone or something in the way and to be safe it requires slowing down or stopping.
If you do an FTP test outside, do it up a long hill just gentle enough that you can ride at your self-selected cadence.

Or just drag the brakes. Your power meter doesn't care how fast you're going!
 

Elzico2012

Speeding Up
Jan 29, 2014
36
32
38
46
#89
@wexford
>Hey @Elzico2012 - how did your race go? Hope you were able to achieve your goals.

Thanks for your message. and Otsukare Sama. Congratulations to you and @WattsUp for your performances. 13th after a 30 years break, what a great result.
On my side for the 5h endeavor , the goals of finishing, not collapsing or going to hell, and riding a decent distance were all achieved. A total of 39 laps, or according to the cycle computer a distance of 188km (115+73) . Finishing 12 out of 31 in the category. Moreover, for the 3h session, the speed was nearly 3km/h faster than 2 or 3 years ago when I did this enduro. It is nice to still improving in the mid 40s, thanks to a constant training, hard at times. So quite happy with the ride
Legs were good in the morning, tired in the afternoon. I actually had a cramp during the break, and at the start of the 2hr session, but this could be managed until the end with a slightly lower cruise speed and the good legs came back toward the end. A 1 hr break does really kill the pace and beyond the cramp, restarting with tired legs was not easy.

I guess you overtook me during the first lap when the 2h group joined us. The temporary cramp made me going relatively slowly at first and I ended in a 10-15 riders group, these guys finishing about in the middle of the 2h open category. I wish the group went faster, but certainly did not have the legs for. I guess you were part of a big group ahead of us finishing about 4 minutes (about half a lap equivalent) faster.

Sorry I could not see you directly. Joining the start line just 1mn before the start, I actually saw you when turning the head behind, waiting near the front line. I tried to search after the race but could not see you around. May be at a next event

Otherwise, the ride was enjoyable, cold in the morning but the rain just stopped at the start, with the road gradually drying. I was happily surprised by the improvement of the course by Bike Navi. The really narrow area (part where the road was open to cars on the left) became much wider this year , really reducing the risk of crash. By the way, I haven't notice any crash during the morning (a few in the afternoon as WattsUp mentioned) but some punctures. It was quite a lot of small pebbles in some parts. Glad I put new tyres for this race.

By the way, all enduros I have been in did not have any age category but Bike Navi introduced that this year. It is a very good thing.
Otherwise, this race was also part of a training for the 4hr enduro at SeoFestival next month in Sodeguara.
Cheers
 

wexford

Maximum Pace
Jul 3, 2012
1,129
721
133
Tokyo
#90
@Elzico2012 - that's awesome. Well done. There is certainly no way I could have done the 3 hour and then the 2 hour at pace. Kudos!

What did you do for nutrition during the event, both cycling and the rest period? I'm curious how you managed it and what you ate.

I might be able to do the SeoFestival. I need to see if the stars align. One thing that I am excited about there is that they seem to have a kids race and I'm thinking my 4 year old stallion might like a crack at that assuming he is big enough. I need to read/understand the rules.
 

Elzico2012

Speeding Up
Jan 29, 2014
36
32
38
46
#91
Thanks @wexford
Such a long ride at pace would have been impossible for me until recently. Willingness and the flat road in Kawasaki helped. But still far from the top players.
As for nutrition, far from being an expert, increasing for sure the carbo/pasta during the week. On the D-Day, breakfast with pasta and a bit of (water cooked) chicken, sometimes a potato. This breakfast has been working well for me. Just a little bit of dry fruit before the start and one of these sport gel energy product (amino acid + BCAA etc. Amino Vital by Ajinomoto not to mention the brand). 2-3 gels for a 3h and 1-2 for a 2h endur. Soon after the end , an energy bar.
The concern this time was to manage the break as it has been the first time for me to have such a break. Although eating is not good before cycling, I still decide to eat a bit of pasta and chicken to get energy but felt uneasy for a while when riding, certainly due to the digestion. Though it did not affect the performance. Should have kept on dry fruits and taking more of this Amino Vital energy , a lesson to remember.
By the way, do you have any special recipies ?
And for drinking ?
After a while, I get fed up with the the sports drinks (still amino vital from powder)

SeoFes is a nice and well established event long awaited by many in Chiba.
Not sure if you know but it is a nice rolling course with two short uphills. Winds can pick up sometimes.
The Milky race might suit your champion.
 
Likes: wexford

baribari

Maximum Pace
May 28, 2010
730
283
83
Fukushima
#92
I find it totally weird that there are so many events in short succession, including another road race here in Fukushima on the same weekend as Motegi and Seo.

Is autumn the biggest season for grass roots competitive cycling events in Japan or something?

Up until now I had the hardest time finding actual races (not "long rides") to think about entering.

Sure, if you're in JCRC or JCBF there are plenty of races to do all year, but Gunsai doesn't exactly play to my strengths and I'm nowhere near good enough for Jitsugyodan races.
 

Elzico2012

Speeding Up
Jan 29, 2014
36
32
38
46
#93
@baribari
Right, there are some rushy periods. May/June and autumn are busy seasons as weather cooperates. At least 4 races in Chiba between mid-november mid- december
A public holiday like the 23rd of November is certainly good for organizers
 

wexford

Maximum Pace
Jul 3, 2012
1,129
721
133
Tokyo
#94
Thanks @wexford
Such a long ride at pace would have been impossible for me until recently. Willingness and the flat road in Kawasaki helped. But still far from the top players.
As for nutrition, far from being an expert, increasing for sure the carbo/pasta during the week. On the D-Day, breakfast with pasta and a bit of (water cooked) chicken, sometimes a potato. This breakfast has been working well for me. Just a little bit of dry fruit before the start and one of these sport gel energy product (amino acid + BCAA etc. Amino Vital by Ajinomoto not to mention the brand). 2-3 gels for a 3h and 1-2 for a 2h endur. Soon after the end , an energy bar.
The concern this time was to manage the break as it has been the first time for me to have such a break. Although eating is not good before cycling, I still decide to eat a bit of pasta and chicken to get energy but felt uneasy for a while when riding, certainly due to the digestion. Though it did not affect the performance. Should have kept on dry fruits and taking more of this Amino Vital energy , a lesson to remember.
By the way, do you have any special recipies ?
And for drinking ?
After a while, I get fed up with the the sports drinks (still amino vital from powder)

SeoFes is a nice and well established event long awaited by many in Chiba.
Not sure if you know but it is a nice rolling course with two short uphills. Winds can pick up sometimes.
The Milky race might suit your champion.
Gosh - asking me about nutrition... lol. I have a pretty high metabolism I think... I don't have any recipes I'm afraid. big bowl of oatmeal, love dried dates, but they probably have too much fiber, been thinking about trying peanut butter that everyone is always raving. Don't think I've ever tried it (incidentally - any good peanut brands available here that are natural?). I also like packing youkans in my back pockets as they are tiny and yummy but I like bananas too. Recently started using SIS gels (just before that race) and quite like them. They go down well and don't affect me with gas or anything. Also recently switched to SIS electrolytes but I didn't use them for that race. They are pretty tasty and lots of flavours. I usually ship them from wiggle but would love to find a local source at reasonable prices - anyone know? Not sure how you survived 3 hours on 2-3 gels. I would have been a skeleton after your next 2 hours. If I had an hour between races, I would have probably eaten about 6 bananas and drank lots of milk chocolate.

Looks like the mrs is running the 25th so I can probably ride on the 23rd. Need to have a proper look at it now and figure out what to ride. Might just do the milky race too if they will let me.
 
Likes: Elzico2012

WattsUp

Maximum Pace
Dec 9, 2017
146
92
58
#96
I was planning on doing the SeoFes...but that's the weekend of my marathon; family and I will be spending the weekend in Yamanashi and I'll be spending Sunday tottering around Lake Kawaguchi and Lake Saiko for 5+ hours.