Japanese steel KAISEI for a frame - looking for info

Bartek

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#1
Hello.

Does anyone know where I could get some info regarding Japanese steel made by KAISEI. I`ve been thinking of getting a steel frame built and the local builders, it seems, enjoy KAISEI more than anything else. It is understandable since it is made locally, but I cannot seem to find much info regarding its quality.

It seems like 2 most popular types used are KAISEI 019 and KAISEI 022. I`d like to know how it compares to Reynolds or Columbus to get some idea.

Also, another kind of steel used is ECO Storong Light, which I think comes out of Korea, but I may be mistaken. Does anyone know anything about it?

If you have a frame made of any types of steel mentioned above, please let me know what you think.

Thank you,

Bart Z.
 
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Bartek

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#3
Look for Ishiwata, same stuff.
Thanks. True. But since Ishiwata closed its doors in the 90s and the company was taken over by Kaisei, the technology has changed. I'd like to find some info about today's steel tubing made by Kaisei and used by the Japanese builders.

Also, I wonder if anyone has heard anything about that ECO STORONG LIGHT stuff (whatever the ECO means). All the info I could get is that it's lighter and stronger than Kaisei :)
 

Mlac Peek

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#5
My fixed wheel frame was built by Kusaka in Osaka with Keisei 8630 triple butted tubes. It has survived a lot of abuse over the last few years, rides in the direction it's pointed in and goes like a bomb. I like it a lot, and love riding that bike.
 

TOM

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#6
Panasonic has 2 kaisei models and it is of course CHERUBIM Konno-san's favorite material. Very sweet balance especially noticeable during curvy downhills. As Kiwisimon noted, the builder is at least as important as the material used. In case of Konno-san, his bikes offer real premium quality riding. Very happy with my Piuma. But Panasonic too has a great track record working with kaisei steel. Cost-performance, Panasonic kaisei bikes are the best IMHO. Ask Hiroshi at c speed !
proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi41.tinypic.com%2F14xe7uq.jpg&hash=dc005caec9ef3719f3c1d8359c1a5da4
 
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Bartek

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#7
Thank you all for the very helpful replies.

Much more on that single page than I found on a few sites :)

My fixed wheel frame was built by Kusaka in Osaka with Keisei 8630 triple butted tubes. It has survived a lot of abuse over the last few years, rides in the direction it's pointed in and goes like a bomb. I like it a lot, and love riding that bike.
Good to hear that you are happy with the frame. I'm definitely gonna ask about Kaisei 8630 and how it compares to Kaisei 019.

Panasonic has 2 kaisei models and it is of course CHERUBIM Konno-san's favorite material. Very sweet balance especially noticeable during curvy downhills. As Kiwisimon noted, the builder is at least as important as the material used. In case of Konno-san, his bikes offer real premium quality riding. Very happy with my Piuma. But Panasonic too has a great track record working with kaisei steel. Cost-performance, Panasonic kaisei bikes are the best IMHO. Ask Hiroshi at c speed !
What type of Kaisei was your Piuma built with?
Is C Speed a cycle shop in Tokyo? I will surely visit it next time I'm in the capital.
 

TOM

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#9
Thank you all for the very helpful replies.



Much more on that single page than I found on a few sites :)



Good to hear that you are happy with the frame. I'm definitely gonna ask about Kaisei 8630 and how it compares to Kaisei 019.



What type of Kaisei was your Piuma built with?
Is C Speed a cycle shop in Tokyo? I will surely visit it next time I'm in the capital.
not sure which type but supposed to be the best KAISEI...special Konno Cycle Works version (25.4mm skinny top tube!)
yes, c speed is in Tokyo. check the link provided by Joe (thanks Joe)
 

Bartek

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#10
Thank you Joe.

not sure which type but supposed to be the best KAISEI...special Konno Cycle Works version (25.4mm skinny top tube!)
yes, c speed is in Tokyo. check the link provided by Joe (thanks Joe)
Thanks again Tom. I tried to look it up on Konno-san's website, but he doesn't go into much detail as to what type of Kaisei he is using. Doesn't matter anyway. I think I've learned enough and have an idea what to go for.

BTW, that bike you've posted looks like a really sweet ride :)
 
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GSAstuto

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#12
basically all steel is the same. Hate to burst all your bubbles, but foundries produce steel in compositions that make money and adhere to ASTM standards. What is different is the drawing process. Any tubing mfg may acquire billet then process how they like. But the selection of billet,is pretty much uniform and same throughout the world. Almost all seamless tubing starts out in life as basic 4130. Then depending how its drawn will become whatever magical brand name the mfg decides. As you get more into the higher chrome and moly comps, then you have the stainless range. Again, drawing determines the brand, but the formula is set by the foundry. Steel bikes are pretty rare these days, so it would be very hard to commission your own alloy. The Young's modulus of steel is fairly similar within billets. So, the tubing characteristics of a Columbus vs a Kaisei built with same gauge and butting will be hardly different. There is a hella more 'magic' in a mm or so of fork trail.... Just saying
 
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GSAstuto

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#13
I specialized in bikes setup for climbing. And the physics and engineering was pretty simple. Reduce weight and compliance. Period. Stiffer and lighter. handling is largely in the fork. Cut down compliance and you shave virtual meters off a course. Extend that over 20km or so and it adds up. Rarely do people ride everyday at tempo, so you can make the stiffest and lightest bike ever and generally riders will love it. Do a 7-14 day stage race and your opinion will change. How do YOU feel after 10days on the bike at 100% tempo! ?? How about 70- 100 days on the bike? The. You start to get a feel for it.
 

GSAstuto

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#14
Steel bikes climb different than carbon or Ti. Each material will handle loads differently, Some absorb, some spring. Carbon can be constructed in such a way the energy is xferred nearly perfectly into the chain.line. Steel just flexes until its yield point. The the stored energy is spring back into the frame. Ti is similar, just less springy. Rider interaction with the mass-spring system is important, too. Do you fight the bike? or work with it?

the feel of my steel bike is sublime. Very smooth and supple. But its quite slow compared to my T1000 high modulus carbon frame, Which do I prefer? BOTH.
 
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Bartek

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#15
basically all steel is the same. Hate to burst all your bubbles, but foundries produce steel in compositions that make money and adhere to ASTM standards. What is different is the drawing process. Any tubing mfg may acquire billet then process how they like. But the selection of billet,is pretty much uniform and same throughout the world. Almost all seamless tubing starts out in life as basic 4130. Then depending how its drawn will become whatever magical brand name the mfg decides. As you get more into the higher chrome and moly comps, then you have the stainless range. Again, drawing determines the brand, but the formula is set by the foundry. Steel bikes are pretty rare these days, so it would be very hard to commission your own alloy. The Young's modulus of steel is fairly similar within billets. So, the tubing characteristics of a Columbus vs a Kaisei built with same gauge and butting will be hardly different. There is a hella more 'magic' in a mm or so of fork trail.... Just saying
Great info, Tim. Thank you.
I won't use it for racing nor I will try to get KOMs on Strava with this bicycle. My knees are damaged enough already. All I want is a souvenir from Japan that I will take home with me when I finally decide to leave here :)
 

dgl2

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#16
The UBI site also has some other info besides the poster on Kaisei tube sets (and sells them).

http://www.bikeschool.com/store/index.cgi?sp=kaisei

http://www.bikeschool.com/PDF_Files/kaisei.pdf

We used Kaisei tubing in my framebuilding class there last year (I kept to some of the thicker tubing, in light of my lack of welding skill and large body size), and I very much enjoy riding the bike that resulted! To paraphrase Tim, which bike material do I prefer? ALL OF THEM.

Another bonus -- Kaisei is a Fukushima-based company, I believe, so good to support disaster recovery by buying and using their tubes.
 

Bartek

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#19
Another bonus -- Kaisei is a Fukushima-based company, I believe, so good to support disaster recovery by buying and using their tubes.
That is a good point. I don't contribute by buying fruit and veggies from Fukushima, so here's my chance to support people there.

Well, it turns out there is a lot of info on the net after all. Thank you.