Help Internal or External cable frames

Gunjira

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#21
Yeah, last season pretty much the whole European CX circus was on di2 for the strength of the motors. Of course they can swap bikes every lap, but ?!?
Was there anybody having issues with the sand at Tokyo CX?
 

FarEast

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#22
Thats weird. Ayako Toyoka is on Di2
"Toyooka" She and several other riders had issues with Di2 at Odaiba and many riders in the Tohoku CX Project had to switch to mechanical bikes mid race..... I actually know Ayako-san as we do the same events and she has a mix of mechanical and Di2

Yu Takenouchi, Japanese national CX champ also had a mix of mechanical and Di2 and he raced all the Tohoku Project race on Mechanical.
 

FarEast

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#23
Yeah, last season pretty much the whole European CX circus was on di2 for the strength of the motors. Of course they can swap bikes every lap, but ?!?
Was there anybody having issues with the sand at Tokyo CX?
Ayaka made 2 bike swaps at Tokyo due to mechanical issues Di2 or not Im not sure, Takenouchi made a swap to his mechanical bike mid race.

The beauty of being a Factory sponsored rider is that you tend to get a healthy supply of bikes with an asortment of kit.

For the recorde I would LOVE to ride Di2 for both road and CX
 
Sep 2, 2009
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#24
Jesus christ.

Oh for the record - Do not get Di2 if you plan to race CX - it stops working in sand and snow, regardless of internal or external cable routing.
B2B
For the recorde I would LOVE to ride Di2 for both road and CX
I think we need a trophy setting up for such superb postings :) I have cringed, shuddered, laughed and been confused beyond reason, all in the space of 2 pages of internets. Good work!
 

FarEast

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#25
Is she????? Bloody hells bells, I would never had guessed.



I think we need a trophy setting up for such superb postings :) I have cringed, shuddered, laughed and been confused beyond reason, all in the space of 2 pages of internets. Good work!
Maybe I should have made myself a little clearer than mud, my post regarding Di2 was to make it clear that I would happilly race the kit and that there is nothing wrong with it, also for the record Ayako and Yu are both racing external Di2 setups as the Toyo/Panasonic bikes they race are steel with no internal cable runs.
 

AlanW

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#26
My road bike has external cables and the shifting certainly seems to take much less effort than my wife's bike with its internally routed cables. But that's not a true like for like comparison as I am on 7800 while she has 7900.
Having said that, that Time frame looks awesome!
 

GSAstuto

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#27
Isn't Ayako still running her extremely heavy Ti Panasonic? Or did she switch camps get Yu's homies to sponsor and build for her too? The Pana looked to me like another domestic engineering brain fart. She had a couple setup with Di2, and as you noted, running the cabling EXTERNAL only to be shredded away by the deep sand. The FCX model has all external routing with the shifter cables going UNDER the downtube. Here's a nice pic of Yu's bike, btw (http://toyoframe.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/TokyoCX2013-4190.jpg) And, oh, yes there is Ayoko, too! Yu's using a cobbled together cable routed bike as Di2. Why oh why can't they just spend a little more time and 'do it right' ? FYI - my <certain big name Japanese pro frame> has all internal routing with design by a <certain Hollywood mouse starting with an 'M'> Another clear case of domestic 'design-itus' run amok. I am SOO tired of having my deraiiler 'auto shift' when I apply more than 15degrees handlebar motion - is that supposed to be a feature? Make sure you put the entry points at the max leverage point in the downtube possible? And, hey, while we're at it let's make sure they WRAP around head tube at the LARGEST point to increase the mechanical gain on pulling the cables! Yey! Passed all tests to me, boss! And the riders will really love the way the bike shifts (and brakes) by simply turning the bars!! If they don't like that - no worries, just tell them to add another 15cm or so of cable to slop around!

@Alan - yes, I lust after your pristine 7800's with the only cable routing scheme that Shimano has gotten 'right' in the last 15yrs or so. The 9000 is certainly better - but I'd bet Apples to Mikans, the 7800 has lower mechanical effort and just as accurate shifting. And the 7800 horizontal exit allows a perfect arc and entry into front , internal guides, done right, by the way, ala Cannondale.
 
Sep 2, 2009
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#28
And the 7800 horizontal exit allows a perfect arc and entry into front , internal guides, done right, by the way, ala Cannondale.
The mechanical Evo frame has an internal rear brake cable routing though the front of the headtube, and out the back of the opposite side seatstay. The rest of the cabling is external, and on the downtube in classic config (the front and rear mech cable routing)
 

TimeTraveler

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#29
Alan, yeah the Time frame is awesome looking! For that reason and the fact that the benefits of internal and external cabling are about the same, my choice is the Time RXRS. I want to thank everyone for all of the very useful comments posted in response to my inquiry!

Much appreciated,
Kevin
 

Karl

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#30
Internal cabling is only a PITA when:

1) You can't route a new cable easily. I.E. no internal straw or the straw itself becomes disconnected or damaged. (Pretty common on carbon frames that use plastic straws)

2) The cable routing has more friction resulting in sluggish or heavy shifting. Anytime you run cable through or around something it generates drag. External cabling can minimize the contact area of the cable and also the cable is generally routed through optimum housing.

Internal Cabling is nice when/because:

1) Less chance of snagging cables on things. (Including your kit)
2) May be more esthetically pleasing.
3) Less prone to environmental issues.
4) Less friction when done properly (less use of external housing).

Just one annoying factor - if the rear derailler cable exits centerline of the dropout (front of axle) it may interfere with mounting on common bike stands and some fixed trainers.

I have bikes with both and I do prefer external shift cable because I can manually adjust it or check if an adjustment is required 'on the fly'. Also - if you have an incident (sometimes known as a crash) , and bugger the brifter, external cable can be easier to MacGyver.
BUMP

Tim has laid out the pros and cons of internal/external pretty well here, from what I can tell from my own research. According to GCN, an additional negative of internal routing besides the biggie -- 'difficult-to-route-a-new-cable' -- is that internal cable can be noisy as it twangs against the bike frame innards when riding on rough surfaces. A Road CC video was pretty critical of gravel bike manufacturers using internal routing as well.

I like simplicity in a bike so external would be my preference, but I like the esthetics of internal. If you were looking at a frame you intended to use as an all-arounder / adventure bike / occasional tourer, would you be put off by internal routing?
 

bloaker

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Nov 14, 2011
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#31
Quick Points
#1 - I saw this thread pop up and I saw "TimeTraveler" as the thread creator. My heart hurt just a bit.
#2 - I have had noisy internal routing and with a few zip ties shut it up in a second (so to me non-issue)
#3 - I have bikes with light shifting and heavy shifting. The lightest shifting are externally routed.
#4 - Another nice thing about internal - easier to keep the bike clean. Every little gusset on a frame is a place for grime.
#5 - for a tourer - I do like frame bags. Internal routing keep the frame clean so mounting bags is super easy. That said, both my bikes with frame bags are external. The only time it irritates me is when I am adjusting straps and one lines up with a mounting point.
 
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Karl

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#32
#2 - How can you use a zip tie to stop the noise from an internally routed cable? Can't picture how that works.
#4 - #5 - good points

Have you found that internally routed cables makes changing out cables a PITA?
 

bloaker

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#33
Depending on the frame of course.
If internal routing goes in near the fork, you can take the fork out and put at zip tie around the housing. DO NOT trim the zip tie. The slide the tie up the housing into the frame. Do this a couple times. The extra bit of the tie will actually push up against the frame and keep the housing in place.

Changing cables? Never an issue.

Changing Housing? Different story.
Again with internal routing - it comes down to the frame.
One steel frame actually had routing welded into the top tube with a sexy setup. You used an end on the housing and slid it the 4mm into the frame, then the build in routing acted as the housing until the other end when you would use housing again. Super easy and silent.

I have a carbon full suspension with internal routing. It routes through the front triangle and again through the swingarm. IT SUCKS - until I found a solution... Get a rear derailleur cable for a tandem. Slide it all the way through your housing, then put the new housing on it as well. Slide it through while maintaining tension.


To add to my opinions earlier - internal routing is not really on my priority list when purchasing a bike.
 
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OreoCookie

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#35
External cable routing is by and far going the way of the dodo, so is it really useful to discuss the pros and cons at this point? For road bikes this allows better aerodynamics (I heard that many modern “normal” frames beating first-gen aero frames already). Because more and more bikes rely on hydraulic disc brakes, brake cable routing is not an issue (because you practically don't need to change the hydraulic cables ever and friction is not an issue with oil or brake fluid). On the MTB side, my last bike to have externally routed cables was purchased in ~2007, I think.

Add to that the growing popularity of electronic shifting — if you have electronic shifting with hydraulic brakes, I don't think you will ever need to touch your internally routed cables again.
 

bloaker

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#36
External cable routing is by and far going the way of the dodo, so is it really useful to discuss the pros and cons at this point? For road bikes this allows better aerodynamics (I heard that many modern “normal” frames beating first-gen aero frames already). Because more and more bikes rely on hydraulic disc brakes, brake cable routing is not an issue (because you practically don't need to change the hydraulic cables ever and friction is not an issue with oil or brake fluid). On the MTB side, my last bike to have externally routed cables was purchased in ~2007, I think.

Add to that the growing popularity of electronic shifting — if you have electronic shifting with hydraulic brakes, I don't think you will ever need to touch your internally routed cables again.
I cannot agree 100%. Internal cables are becoming more popular, yes. External routing going away? I don't agree,. It is less expensive to manufacture and 100% functional.
I also have a 2018 MTB with external routing. So maybe it is the brands you like specifically that are going that way?
I am not surprised by the aero findings. I have long believed most aero bikes in the first generation or two were as much about looking aero as they were about being aero.

Engineer - we can tear drop the tubes like this a bit.
Marketing - that's nice, but don't you think people across the parking lot want to see it is aero too? Maybe make the tubes bigger...



And lets not forget just how HUGE cannondale tubing was in the beginning anyway.
I am willing to be you could take the cables off of the Aero frame and a modern frame would be more aero.
 
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OreoCookie

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#39
I cannot agree 100%. Internal cables are becoming more popular, yes. External routing going away? I don't agree,. It is less expensive to manufacture and 100% functional.
I also have a 2018 MTB with external routing. So maybe it is the brands you like specifically that are going that way?
Just to clarify my argument: I think external cable routing is going extinct in the mainstream for road and mountain bikes. Even cheap entry-level bikes from mainstream manufacturers have internal cable routing. Cannondale's entry-level bikes seem to be an exception to the rule, though. And for higher-level bikes that are not from boutique manufacturers (e. g. low-volume steel or titanium frames) I can't think of an example of a new frame design with external cable routing.

So it doesn't seem that price is that big a factor. And even if I am wrong and it turns out to be a factor, isn't then the main reason for mainstream manufacturers to not have internal cable routing that they can save a few Yen/Euros/Dollars? That argument goes away quickly once you look at more serious bikes.
I am not surprised by the aero findings. I have long believed most aero bikes in the first generation or two were as much about looking aero as they were about being aero.
It is also that people didn't know what actually was aero and how to test it. So they took shapes that looked aero, but I don't think they did that because they believed it was “just for the looks”, but because the engineers believed it was aero. Conversely, what was learned about aero design was applied to mainstream bikes, so the “non-aero” frames benefitted from that.

This also applies to simplistic pieces of advice such as aero riding position = get the stem as low as possible. Unfortunately, very few of us have access to a wind tunnel where you can consult with expert to find the best seating position for you (which must also include that you can actually hold this position for the duration of the race).
And lets not forget just how HUGE cannondale tubing was in the beginning anyway.
I am willing to be you could take the cables off of the Aero frame and a modern frame would be more aero.
Aerodynamics has become all about marginal gains. IMHO the biggest difference is the seating position: when I test rode the Strada, I felt much lower than on a BMC Teammachine, and probably that had the biggest impact on aerodynamic efficiency. (Spectacular bikes, both of them.)
 

Karl

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#40
Question: For anyone who has hydraulic disc brakes.... how do you get along when you travel on airlines with the bike?

(Basically, wondering if I should go with mechanical disc brakes on some, to be purchased, bike of the future so traveling on airlines is still relatively simple to pull off.)