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adventurous cyclist

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microcord

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A hero of mine: 'I felt powerless – so I started filming': CyclingMikey on his one-man battle with dangerous drivers. Though from what I've heard -- or what I (mis?) remember of it -- in Japan there's no point trying to interest anyone in your video, unless/until you're actually hit.

If it is indeed impossible to interest the police in such matters, we can at least attempt to remonstrate with the drivers. There's some cringeworthy stuff within this video



I mean, I'm all for peace, but making the "peace" sign to idiot drivers, ugh. Yet Gaimon's reasoning does make sense. It might actually work.
 

jdd

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If you fall from a standing/stationary position, your head can take quite a whack. Eg, drop a melon from head height.

20-25km/hr is hardly high speed… I guess it’s high enough to knock someone over with some force.

this isn’t the first time they’ve charged a road bike rider in a case like this. Not having the right safety gear seems to be a factor in the charging.


Uh, "...the company's speed-based payment program led to the fatality."

And a couple further comments like that, but then the company skates free saying they'll improve something or other? (maybe "Our riders are contractors", or some such BS)
 

OreoCookie

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If you fall from a standing/stationary position, your head can take quite a whack. Eg, drop a melon from head height.


Uh, "...the company's speed-based payment program led to the fatality."

And a couple further comments like that, but then the company skates free saying they'll improve something or other? (maybe "Our riders are contractors", or some such BS)
AFAIK these services don’t even provide insurance for their riders. (I remember someone here posting about an accident they had with a delivery cyclist.) Agreed that this is just empty BS corporate speak to wiggle out of the situation.

I’d also add that looking microscopically at one accident obscures the fact that the cycling infrastructure in Japan is (on average) very, very bad. On my daily commute there is one “bike path” which is so comically bad that it’d amuse the hell out of you. Utility poles, electricity infrastructure and the like are smack in the middle of it.
 

baribari

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I wonder if he wasn't one of the handful of amateur or semi-pro racers who use Uber Eats to make money while training.
 

SJ1

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Aug 23, 2009
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In spite of the older gentleman's death, I felt sympathy for the young delivery guy regarding the 'Professional negligence' aspect. Whilst I don't fully know the implications/legal aspects there, the delivery riders I see around my area simply look like students that are just trying to make ends meet in an exploited work environment. Professional negligence is something I had normally seen only related to occupations requiring recognised certifications or licenses.
 

kiwisimon

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professional as in working. He was employed as a delivery person and that is when the accident occurred. It was dark and it was raining and the cyclist with rain on his glasses decided to not turn on a light? The deceased had SFA chance avoiding getting hit. Hard to have much sympathy for the person indicted.

I've seen a few food delivery by bike guys up here in Aomori and they break the road rules a lot. Riding against traffic, ignoring lights, looking at devices while riding to save a few seconds. It's a tough gig but no one made them do it.
 

Kangaeroo

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I've seen a few food delivery by bike guys up here in Aomori and they break the road rules a lot. Riding against traffic, ignoring lights, looking at devices while riding to save a few seconds. It's a tough gig but no one made them do it.
In their defense, nobody has trained them not to do that, either. I find it staggering that UberEats, the company, is not held culpable in any way for this and similar incidents. It doesn't train, protect, insure or otherwise take responsibility for its indentured workers other than to pay them the minimum amount they can get away, yet benefits enormously from their labors and is seemingly permitted to escape accountability whenever the inevitable happens and something goes wrong. Ludicrous situation for mine, and extremely irritating.
 

OreoCookie

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He was employed as a delivery person and that is when the accident occurred. It was dark and it was raining and the cyclist with rain on his glasses decided to not turn on a light? The deceased had SFA chance avoiding getting hit. Hard to have much sympathy for the person indicted.
Liability isn't the same as responsibility. Requiring companies to insure their delivery cyclists and drivers protects people and should be a no brainer. And those accidents remind me of air crashes caused by e. g. fatigued pilots. Yes, perhaps the pilots ultimately were the ones to make the mistake, but to prevent or reduce the number of accidents, new rules and regulations were put in place for the companies. The same should happen here.
I've seen a few food delivery by bike guys up here in Aomori and they break the road rules a lot. Riding against traffic, ignoring lights, looking at devices while riding to save a few seconds. It's a tough gig but no one made them do it.
That sounds like a lot of Japanese cyclists. Cyclists riding on the road against traffic is one of my pet peeves. But it is hardly a thing specific to delivery cyclists, I have seen obaachans doing it, school children doing it, teens doing it and adults doing it. I'd say it is something most Japanese don't seem to learn or at least take seriously.
 

kiwisimon

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Liability isn't the same as responsibility. Requiring companies to insure their delivery cyclists and drivers protects people and should be a no brainer.
I'm not seeing it, the cyclist broke the law and killed someone, how is UE insuring the cyclist going to prevent accidents?
Individual responisibilty starts as soon as you ride or drive a vehicle in a public space. I worked for a government ofice and when in the car I was covered by it's insurance but I still had to pay the speeding tickets myself. How would additional regulation or insurance stop cyclists taking risks when general road laws can't?
Yes, perhaps the pilots ultimately were the ones to make the mistake, but to prevent or reduce the number of accidents, new rules and regulations were put in place for the companies. The same should happen here.
fatigue induced mistakes and wilful disregard of laws are two very different things, and that is what you are conflating here aren't you?
I'd say it is something most Japanese don't seem to learn or at least take seriously.
hence the need for some time in prison after and actual enforcement of the laws before an accident happens. Cops are good at targeting foreign looking ppl and young kids on bikes, maybe they shouild start pulling up the salarymen and mamas.
 
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kiwisimon

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In their defense, nobody has trained them not to do that, either
pretty sure UberEats say follow the law. Beyond that how much can a company do? I'm no fan of uber eats.and I think they are like many gig econmy providers, not model organisations.
If cyclists can't folow the laws of the road which carry very serious and expensive penalties, why will they follow a company directive to do the same when the best that company can do is fire them? The victim here is the dead man. The cyclist allegedly killed him with bad and wilful decisions to break the law.
 

OreoCookie

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I'm not seeing it, the cyclist broke the law and killed someone, how is UE insuring the cyclist going to prevent accidents?
Two things: if the company has to take part of the responsibility, they will put pressure on couriers to stick to laws. The second thing is that the victims or the victims' families need to get reimbursed for damages. If some student doesn't have bicycle insurance or the insurance does not cover everything, the victims get less of a payout.

I think it is very simple logic that employees should in the line of work be covered by insurance. If the employee acted totally recklessly (e. g. by driving drunk), then their employer would have a case against the (former?) employee. With that legal construction the victim (or their family) always gets reimbursed and never gets stuck with the bills. In case of recklessness, the company can try to get money back from its employees.

This will give additional motivation for the company to make sure its employees follow the rules.
Individual responisibilty starts as soon as you ride or drive a vehicle in a public space. I worked for a government ofice and when in the car I was covered by it's insurance but I still had to pay the speeding tickets myself. How would additional regulation or insurance stop cyclists taking risks when general road laws can't?
Sounds like an American attitude to me (no offense), a lot of focus on the individual, very little to no focus on society. I am not saying the individual is without fault or responsibility. I'm saying that it makes a difference whether you are a traffic participant in a commercial context or a private context — a taxi driver is different from you driving your car to the grocery store. It is also the same reason why taxis in most countries I am aware of are subject to a much stricter inspection regime than regular cars.

I'm saying that if there is a victim (in case of speeding there isn't) and someone was on the clock, the company should be liable for that. For example, if a company realizes that their incentive for couriers to deliver food within a certain time window backfires, because they take more risks, then they could react to that.
fatigue induced mistakes and wilful disregard of laws are two very different things, and that is what you are conflating here aren't you?
I'm not conflating anything. I'm just claiming that couriers should be covered by the same legal construction of liability and insurance than e. g. airline pilots.

When airline pilots make a mistake, do families of the victims get to sue the pilots? Or do they sue the airline? They sue the airline. The same legal principle should hold here.

Note that this extends also to other areas such as health insurance while on business trips. In Germany it is the law that when I go to work I am covered by the employer's insurance. So when I had a bike accident while commuting to work, it was covered and I got more PT in fact, than if it were covered by my health insurance. Ditto for business trips. My Japanese university does not pay for international health insurance, and I cannot pay for it through my grants either.
Cops are good at targeting foreign looking ppl on bikes, maybe they shouild start pulling up the salarymen and mamas.
Don't get me started. And those taxi drivers who use a lane as a parking spot. (Yes, I know, since they switch on their emergency blinkers, it is technically legal …) But that isn't the question here.
 

OreoCookie

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pretty sure UberEats say follow the law. Beyond that how much can a company do? I'm no fan of uber eats.and I think they are like many gig econmy providers, not model organisations.
Yes, but we are criticizing the current state of the law.
 

kiwisimon

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Two things: if the company has to take part of the responsibility, they will put pressure on couriers to stick to laws. The second thing is that the victims or the victims' families need to get reimbursed for damages. If some student doesn't have bicycle insurance or the insurance does not cover everything, the victims get less of a payout.
that makes sense
I think it is very simple logic that employees should in the line of work be covered by insurance. If the employee acted totally recklessly (e. g. by driving drunk), then their employer would have a case against the (former?) employee. With that legal construction the victim (or their family) always gets reimbursed and never gets stuck with the bills. In case of recklessness, the company can try to get money back from its employees.
contractors aren't employees. Contractors should however have their own insurance and in Tokyo I'm pretty sure cycle insurance is mandatory.
Sounds like an American attitude to me (no offense), a lot of focus on the individual, very little to no focus on society.
LOL, their is no separation of the two, individuals share a greater reponsibilty to follow the law than society as a collective.
I am not saying the individual is without fault or responsibility. I'm saying that it makes a difference whether you are a traffic participant in a commercial context or a private context — a taxi driver is different from you driving your car to the grocery store
exactly, the law and the penalties reflect that. In this case the moron on the bike is getting that lesson and hopefully the rest take note.
I'm saying that if there is a victim (in case of speeding there isn't) and someone was on the clock, the company should be liable for that
Lets say you are driving between campuses at a high rate of speed in your 911 (cause Porsches are designed to be driven fast, which from a company in a nanny state like Gernmany is not very socially concious, no offense 😜) and you smash into a parked car, do you think the university is liable? I would say not. anyways I have to go and make some money, cheers !
 

OreoCookie

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contractors aren't employees. Contractors should however have their own insurance and in Tokyo I'm pretty sure cycle insurance is mandatory.
Which is one of the issues with the gig economy: companies shirk a whole host of taxes and other responsibilities. IMHO while on the job pilots and couriers should be covered by their employer.
LOL, their is no separation of the two, individuals share a greater reponsibilty to follow the law than society as a collective.
I don't think it is that simple, because it stops short of looking at the bigger picture.

For example, work accidents happen. This is particularly tragic, but accidents are part of doing business. That's why when you are on the job, you should be insured for work accidents. Accidents with bikes are no more or less special than car accidents when you are a taxi or delivery driver. They happen, it's part of doing business. And insurances mitigate the damage to other people's property and other people.

Further, another big issue is the lack of proper cycling infrastructure in Japan. That'd make it safer for cyclists and pedestrians by reducing the number of accidents, for example. This is something we all know. On most roads there are no bike paths. Even when there are bike paths, most are bad and pedestrians or cars don't care.
exactly, the law and the penalties reflect that. In this case the moron on the bike is getting that lesson and hopefully the rest take note.
Ok, I have no clue about Japanese law, so I can't talk about what the legal situation is here. But I reckon there is a difference between civil and criminal liability just like anywhere else I have been. Where to place this case, I don't know. I can do something unwise and not commit a crime. E. g. I could be inattentive because I am changing the radio station and cause an accident where someone dies. Or a child can run onto the road in between cars. That doesn't automatically mean I have committed a criminal offense.

In my experience placing draconic punishments on the individual for something like that doesn't do anything.
Lets say you are driving between campuses at a high rate of speed in your 911 (cause Porsches are designed to be driven fast, which from a company in a nanny state like Gernmany is not very socially concious, no offense 😜) and you smash into a parked car, do you think the university is liable? I would say not. anyways I have to go and make some money, cheers !
First of all, yes, please tell my employer that I need a Porsche as a perk! I'd appreciate that very much :p

If it was a regular accident with no gross negligence on my part, I'm fairly sure the answer is a simple and unmitigated yes. (Simple speeding probably does not cross that threshold.) The employer's insurance will pay for the damage and the other employer-based insurance will cover my medical bills. I might get additional points on my license for speeding, yes, and might have to pay a fine or deal with other penalties.

Same goes if I speed with a company car: that's an infraction against my license, not against a car, so that's on me. But there are infractions where my employer can get into trouble. Truck drivers in Europe are only allowed to drive certain number of hours per day and per week. If they exceed that, their employer gets into big trouble.

When gross negligence is at play, I don't know, but I reckon the bar is quite high for that. If my behavior crosses the line into criminal law and e. g. someone got hurt, I think I would be on the hook for restitution and such, of course.

If it was my personal car, I reckon my insurance would have to pay first and my employer's insurance would cover my medical bills. Even if there were a fight over my medical bills, I wouldn't be involved, that'd be between my employer's insurance and my medical insurance. But even here, AFAIK the legal situation would be that the other party would probably not be able to sue me directly, but only my insurance. And my insurance might then have a claim against me.

(This was also an issue in the diesel gate scandal, for the vast majority of cars, it wasn't VW's responsibility to take back the cars, but the car dealership's responsibility and the car dealerships in turn would have to sue VW. This was problematic on many instances, but this is how German law works.)

PS And who says Germany is a nanny state? Can you tell me a major country (Isle of Man doesn't count) where you have no speed limit and I can do 300 km/h legally with my company Porsche? ;)
 

kiwisimon

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cycling tips I think reported this a few weeks ago. Makes sense for Zwift to get TR's Adaptive training without costly (in time) development.
 
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