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Heart Rate Training Zones

When I said about training before breakfast, I was talking about the said 1h in HR zone 3. If you eat adequately enough (which most people do), then you have enough reserves to fuel a 1 hour asaren ride on the rollers.

Then, as James pointed out, take advantage of the "half hour window" with a nutritious breakfast.

On the road I eat more than anyone I know. Like a fat lad at the pictures. Just ask Tom who watched me emptying my pockets at Tokyo~Itoigawa last year.

Andy

www.jyonnobitime.com/time

Sorry, Andy. I agree with you; I didn`t mean it was bad per se. I meant it was not good training if you are aiming to do high-end work and like FarEast said, can lead to bonking (but obviously not, if you are just riding for 1 hour).
 
Im not sure what you point actually is here Sikochi, however:

Take a look at table 1 in the link you provided. Endurance training heart rates are listed from 69% of max through to 83% of max heart rate.

So taking the calculator which is not accurate but a good benchmark

Im 36 - Max heart rate is listed as 184 zone 1 would be by Coggan's scale would be a heart rate of 126bpm

For Mike at 42 a work out at the top end of 147bpm..... so I would be riding at a much lower pace and intensity.

I agree and I don`t. Yes, he would be riding at a lower pace (as wattage indicated) but L2 by definition is a level of intensity relative to each person`s FTP, so you cannot be riding at a lower intensity...unless you are at different ends of the L2 bandwidth, but by definition, the difference in intensity is minimal otherwise it wouldn`t still be L2. As you said earlier, HR bandwidths are unreliable.

At the end of the day its all possible.... ive ridden for clubs that have been practicing this technique for years but at the end of the day it all comes down to the individual and thier ability to stay in thier training zones.

Also I have to say that training with a power meter is the most accurate way to train, but even Coggan and I am very familiar with his work as it makes up a lot of the advanced studies we do durring our coaching certification. But even he says that the relation to heart rate and wattage is a rough estimate and very difficult to compare the two.

So for simplicity we "Professional Coaches" are trained to teach one or the other to athletes. If an athlete only has a heart rate monitor available then we teach how to train with that. If they have a SRM or power meter then there is absolutely no point in going over training in regards to heart rate as the power meter is the most accurate training tool currently avaible.

I`m not saying this ride cannot be done as L2 for everybody, just unlikely that it is/was, and 5 hours would be racking up way too many TSS points for inexperienced riders.
 
This is a very interesting thread. I learnt a lot from the postings.

I want to go much further distances (for fat burn and personal ambition) and therefore was interested, but one conclusion for me is that currently I'm probably better off doing an LSD ride on my own than attempt something that keeps even Mike in zone 3/4 almost half the time.

It may be LSD to you but it's "speed" to me ;)
 
I agree and I don`t. Yes, he would be riding at a lower pace (as wattage indicated) but L2 by definition is a level of intensity relative to each person`s FTP, so you cannot be riding at a lower intensity...unless you are at different ends of the L2 bandwidth, but by definition, the difference in intensity is minimal otherwise it wouldn`t still be L2. As you said earlier, HR bandwidths are unreliable.



I`m not saying this ride cannot be done as L2 for everybody, just unlikely that it is/was, and 5 hours would be racking up way too many TSS points for inexperienced riders.


Ok lets get something straight.... training with a heart rate monitor is totally different to training with a power meter and really you can't really accurately compare the two.

The guidelines and numbers Coggan gives regarding perceived exertion rate and also heart rate zones is a guestimate at best. There is a huge list of things that can affect your heart rate in any given ride, caffeine intake, rest levels, stress levels amount of sleep. Wattage is wattage and although the same things can affect your output the numbers the physical aspect of these numbers doesn't change.

Again this is something if you take the "training with power" module as a UCI coach they talk about. Heart Rate Training and Power Meter Training are two seperate methods.

So again I'm not sure what your point is here…. You are trying to compare or rationalize two different training and performance indicators that can't be accurately compared. As you rightly point out my FTP and other critical power numbers will be totally different to another rider and very difficult to ride as a group within the zones required when training with power. Heart rate zones are a totally different matter.
 
This is a very interesting thread. I learnt a lot from the postings.

I want to go much further distances (for fat burn and personal ambition) and therefore was interested, but one conclusion for me is that currently I'm probably better off doing an LSD ride on my own than attempt something that keeps even Mike in zone 3/4 almost half the time.

It may be LSD to you but it's "speed" to me ;)

Joe, even if you are in zone 3/4 you are still going to burn fat and increase endurance. You may not burn as much fat as you would in zone 1 or 2 but regardless your body will pull fuel from your body regardless.

Just a finaly point.

The reason I am talking about training with heart rate monitors is because the majority of poeple on the TCC have them. I think there only 2 or 3 members (Sikochi and myself included) that have power meters. So I see absolutely no point in talking or giving training advice at this point regarding them as, like this thread only creates confusion due to the two seperate training tools and the inability to compare the two that opens up a lot of questions that can't actually be answered.

One example we were given is that its like trying to teach a learner driver who is dirving an automatic how to drive a manual car.

In regards to endurance, it's about consistency. Just riding something like this is once in a blue moon won't really give you any benefits, but once a week or even better twice will have an effect on your overall endurance.
 
Just to add to FarEast`s points about fat-burning (Very good post - I agree with you here ;)) the best way to increase the point (in wattage terms ) at which your body turns to carbohydrate/glyocgen more as a fuel source is to raise your FTP. Your body requires oxygen to burn fat so it is more inefficient as a fuel source, hence high intensity work requires glycogen.
So you say that increasing FTP will increase the fat/carbohydrate turnaround-point. So why do base as FTP training is high intensity training right?

Yes, this is where `base` comes in. VO2 work shouldn`t be done `til you have been training consistently for a long time (say 6 months)
My initial doubt was: "Why not do base and interval training at the same training session?" I learned that the body is too stressed after 150k so that there is not much left to have an significant interval training effect, better to do interval training when you are fully recovered.

The next question would now be: "Why do base first and interval training later?" Besides the semantic meaning of "base", I can not come up with any scientific/logical reasons for that (so far :angel:).
 
see the link above. Andy Coggan is the guy who came up with FTP, TSS, IF, NP etc. - so many of what are now standard training terms for cyclists, so I would use his figures above anyone elses.

Also, if you check this link (penultimate pages 22/23) it gives a good example of a training ride for each level.
http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/Archivedarticles/Power_Training_Chapter.pdf
So we have many definitions now:
  • FarEast Method
    Zone1 & 2< 65%-80% of MaxHR
  • Andy Coggan Method
    Zone 1 <= 55% of LTHR
    Zone 2 <= 83% of LTHR
    Zone 3 <= 94% of LTHR
    Zone 4 <= 105 of LTHR
    Zone 5 <= N/A
    Zone 6 <= N/A
  • Cyclist Training Bible - Joe Friel
    Zone 1 <= 81% of LTHR
    Zone 2 <= 88% of LTHR
    Zone 3 <= 93% of LTHR
    Zone 4 <= 100% of LTHR
    Zone 5a <= 102% of LTHR
    Zone 5b <= 105% of LTHR
    Zone 5c >= 106% of LTHR
  • Polar Precession Performance SW
    Zone 5 (VLI) < 60% of MaxHR
    Zone 4 (LI) < 70% of MaxHR
    Zone 3 (MOD) < 80% of MaxHR
    Zone 2 (HARD) < 90% of MaxHR
    Zone 1 (MAX) >= 90% of MaxHR
(Note that LTHR is the threshold hr that you can keep for a 1h TT)

Related question, how do you guys analyze the zones of your garmin tcx logs, any simple script that get the values into excel?
 
On another note of eating, a 30minute window after exercise is when recovery fuels have their most effect on the body, carbs, protein and amino acids prevent the body from using breaking down muscle tissue or fat as a form of energy to recover.

So if you are looking to build or maintain weight this is the period that you should be eating, if you are looking to shed weight or muscle mass then its not.

Exercise in heart rate zone 3 for 1 hour every day.

If I follow both recommendations it means no breakfast at all :confused:.
Or should I wait with the breakfast 30min after the training ride ??? :confused:
 
Malte you have quoted me incorrectly.

I state in the article that Zone 1 and 2 are between 65%-80% of Max HR.

Also you are comparing training with power and training with heart rate monitor that is confusing the matter.

We are discussing training with heart rate so I suggest you lose the LTHR as it is confusing everyone. Also as you currently don't have a powertap or SRM the information is currently of no use to you.

In regards to the above.... get up earlier and eat breakfast late and I do not recommend skipping meals when training as this is disordered eating which can lead to more serious eating habits.
 
My initial doubt was: "Why not do base and interval training at the same training session?" I learned that the body is too stressed after 150k so that there is not much left to have an significant interval training effect, better to do interval training when you are fully recovered.

The next question would now be: "Why do base first and interval training later?" Besides the semantic meaning of "base", I can not come up with any scientific/logical reasons for that (so far :angel:).


Malte,

At the end of the day, it's not rocket science.

Basically base training is training to improve your endurance / stamina. For most active people this is the only training they do. And of course it's plenty for a fit and healthy lifestyle.

However, if you want to push yourself further, you can build on top of this. As a cyclist, this largely means making yourself go faster. This is where high intensity training (such as intervals) is used.

How far you can push yourself is influenced by how big your base is. Liken it to the foundations for a house or the engine in a car. Sure you can tune up a small engine but it won't be as strong or as fast as a tuned up big one.

So you push yourself harder and harder. Your body responds to this. You become faster. You reach a peak.

This peak is only temporary. With the time it takes to do this process (ie. build up to a peak), you can peak perhaps a couple of times in a year.

This is why a training plan is so important to target your race goals.

Of course this is oversimplifying things but I hope it helps to explain it a little.

You're doing Kusatsu right? Train easy now. Train more intensively in the month leading up to the race. Back off the week before. And..... enjoy the race!

Andy

www.jyonnobitime.com/time
 
Also you are comparing training with power and training with heart rate monitor that is confusing the matter.

We are discussing training with heart rate so I suggest you lose the LTHR as it is confusing everyone. Also as you currently don't have a powertap or SRM the information is currently of no use to you.

To get LTHR - lactate threshold heart-rate (from the cyclists's bible):
1. Complete a 30-min TT on a flat to slightly uphill road course
2. To determine your LTHR, click the lab button on your HRM 10min into the TT, The average HR for the last 20min is a good estimation of LTHR.
 
To get LTHR - lactate threshold heart-rate (from the cyclists's bible):

"A good estimate"..... but highly inaccurate and open to considerable differences due to stress loads on the body, different recovery time, diet, hydration to get LTHR you need a blood test durring the activity.

But as this is very expensive and not available to most it is a "Guide" to help you understand or get a benchmark figure.
 
"A good estimate"..... but highly inaccurate and open to considerable differences due to stress loads on the body, different recovery time, diet, hydration to get LTHR you need a blood test durring the activity.

But as this is very expensive and not available to most it is a "Guide" to help you understand or get a benchmark figure.

Wouldn't a blood test show exactly the same fluctuation due to stress loads on the body, etc.? Also same concerns would apply for getting MaxHR value, how to reliable get it?

@admin: can we move this discussion into new thread like "Heart Rate Training Zones"

Just renamed the thread to match the content. Hope this helps. OwenJames
 
Power meter?

Competitive Cyclist have POWERTAP PRO+ meters on MAVIC OPEN PRO rims For sale at $660 or about ¥60,000 including shipping!
You can sell it for that used on Yahoo auction in two years....:D
 
"A good estimate"..... but highly inaccurate and open to considerable differences due to stress loads on the body, different recovery time, diet, hydration to get LTHR you need a blood test durring the activity.

But as this is very expensive and not available to most it is a "Guide" to help you understand or get a benchmark figure.

Yep, which is why you should do the test once a month to get an average figure. Try to keep all variables (course, wind, rest levels etc etc) as constant as possible.

Personally I think the LTHR value is the most important figure to the training cyclist.

Again, not rocket science.

Train either side of the LTHR for different specific training needs.

Also training at LTHR (eg. controlled climbing at LTHR) or criss crossing your LTHR (an interval workout on the rollers) can help you to raise this figure and / or work harder below this figure.

Andy

www.jyonnobitime.com/time
 
So you say that increasing FTP will increase the fat/carbohydrate turnaround-point. So why do base as FTP training is high intensity training right?

Apologies for what will be one of many posts, but so many points and much easier to do them one at a time!

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/what-is-threshold-power.aspx
The physiological factors determining LT are complex, but in this context blood lactate levels essentially serve as an indirect marker for biochemical events within exercising muscle. More specifically, a person's LT reflects the ability of their muscles to match energy supply to energy demand, which in turn determines the fuel "mix" (i.e., carbohydrate vs. fat) used and the development of muscle fatigue.
****
reading between the lines....if LT determines the energy supply used, then raising it, will raise the wattage point at which this happens.
 
So we have many definitions now:

Actually Malte, I remembered that the RST group do a lot of HR training advice (for the reason FarEast gave - that not many people have access to power meters). They do HR training based off MAP tests, so might be more useful to you. They have contact with Andy Coggan, so their zones are an adapted version of his. They discuss the difference, with input from Andy Coggan here
http://www.cyclingforums.com/t/325258/coggan-vs-rst-levels-vs-zones-help
and a graphic of both versions is here.
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2008/01/graphical-representation-of-training.html
Training+Zones+Comparison-2.bmp


also, see this post from the above mentioned discussion:-
"Especially when you consider that, contrary to what many mistakenly believe, there's no "magic" to training at some precise intensity (regardless of whether it's quantified based on perceived exertion, heart rate, or power/VO2), and in fact you can't control training intensity all that precisely in the first place (unless you do all of your training on an ergometer)."
 
So you say that increasing FTP will increase the fat/carbohydrate turnaround-point. So why do base as FTP training is high intensity training right?

My initial doubt was: "Why not do base and interval training at the same training session?" I learned that the body is too stressed after 150k so that there is not much left to have an significant interval training effect, better to do interval training when you are fully recovered.

The next question would now be: "Why do base first and interval training later?" Besides the semantic meaning of "base", I can not come up with any scientific/logical reasons for that (so far :angel:).

Biggest problem here, is what is base training??? I would go for a slightly different definition than Andy, and to use a gardening analogy, define base training as preparing the ground for what you will sow. Or for instance, if a pianist had their arm in a sling for a month, they wouldn`t start off by playing Rachmaninov. Hence, base training is about acclimitizing your body for the training load you will place on it and preparing it for higher intensity work. Thus, base training is different for everybody, as everybody is at a different starting point. Depending on your circumstances, then taking this thread, 5-hour LSD rides can be base traing for one person. For another, 30 mins zone 2 can be base training.

As for FTP, then there are many ways to increase it, intervals are just one way of doing it. This article explains some of the thinking behind it.
http://freewebs.com/velodynamics2/loadeffect.pdf
 
To get LTHR - lactate threshold heart-rate (from the cyclists's bible):

What you have to remember, is that no FTP test is 100% accurate, as they all require you to cycle for a certain length of time, and how do you know when you set off, what level you can sustain? Motivation is a major factor. Even the supposed gold standard - straight 60 min TT - falls foul of this. Hence, as FarEast said, it is just a guideline. I haven`t tested my FTP as I know roughly what it is, +/- 5 W, and that is sufficient.

You also have to remember that terrain can have a big effect on FTP. For instance, given my love of hills, I did yesterday`s interval uphill for 23 min at 270/271 W. Today, for 30 mins on the flat only managed 220 W...but in my defence, it was pissing it down and I had a backpack with teaching materials/clothes etc...

Yep, which is why you should do the test once a month to get an average figure. Try to keep all variables (course, wind, rest levels etc etc) as constant as possible.

Personally I think the LTHR value is the most important figure to the training cyclist.

Again, not rocket science.

Train either side of the LTHR for different specific training needs.

Also training at LTHR (eg. controlled climbing at LTHR) or criss crossing your LTHR (an interval workout on the rollers) can help you to raise this figure and / or work harder below this figure.

Andy

www.jyonnobitime.com/time

I agree with Andy above.
 
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