Heart Rate Training Zones

#1
So I've decided to start my mornin training again. Because I have classes at 11 I need to start early and be back in ikebukuro by 10.

With that said I am going to do morning runs down the Arakawa starting at 7am. The plan is ride out for 1 hour, turn around and ride an hour back, no stops. Being that this is training I will do some days as (short)LSD rides and others as intervals an cardio training.

If anyone is interested in joining me I will post a meeting place!

Eric; I edited and moved the thread to match the content. I realise your original intent may not have been to spark the discussion that followed, so if you want to advertise your ride again, please start a new thread to do so. Sorry for the inconvenience! OwenJames
 

FarEast

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#2
Eric, there is absolutely no point in doing 2 hours of LSD work. You need to be doing at least between 5-7 hours of continuous L.S Distance pace for it to have the desired effect on your metabolism and cellular level. Thus why it’s called long slow distance.

Have a read of the article I wrote about LSD training and what it’s all about which should explain it in more detail for you.

http://jamesmachin.jp/entry/blog/long-slow-distance-and-the-importance-of-base-training

If all you have is 2 hours then I would recommend the following:

Use the time going out to work on pedaling technique, work on spinning perfect circles at a high rpm, 90-110 rpm. Then on the way back use the time for interval training. Various different types you can do and 1 hour is the perfect amount of time. But if you ride for 2 hours at in h/r zone 1 and 2 its going to offer no benefits at all.
 
Likes: Sheep
#3
Thanks for the link! It was a good read!

I will adjust my training plan and I also talked to tim a little about how I should be training. For now a lot of fixed gear riding with high cadence!

I hope you might be able to meet with me one of the mornings and I will try to make more of your training rides!
 

joewein

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#6
Having been on James' LSD ride yesterday, I can confirm that this is true. It seems the 'desired effect' is surreptitious replacement of your quad muscles with as much soggy, painful tofu.
Looking at his GPS log, James did an average of 24 km/h over 185 km on a route that included 1500 m of altitude gain. My idea of "long slow distance" would be different, as I could not manage more than one of the three numbers at a time...
 
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#7
There used to be a good thread in here on games you can play on short rides...

Try 1km intervals using one leg only...switch legs every km... your pedaling stroke will become very efficient.... :rolleyes:

And always keep in mind that one man's long is another man's short and one man's zone 1 is another man's 5...
 

FarEast

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#8
Ok if any of you had read the article I posted on my website it would answer a lot of the points you bring up. Also one of the things I did was introduced European club ride etiquette that actually levels the playing field.

Advanced riders loop back on the climbs to the last man and normally this allows the ride to stay fluid, one other point is that yes I may ride at an average of 24 km/h for 190 km but I’m also capable of riding much faster while still remaining is zone 2, we all slowed the pace down for the slowest man….in this case a woman yet we all reaped the rewards for riding in zone 1 and 2.

But the crux is time – it has been proven that unless you are able to keep within the zones between 5 and 7 hours there are absolutely no benefits of doing long slow distance riding.

Also on the note of 1 leg intervals…. Be very, very careful as unless you are able to perform perfect circles in your pedal stroke all you will do is get good at doing something badly, this is why power cranks were invented as they “force” perfect pedal stroke.
 

FarEast

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#9
My idea of "long slow distance" would be different, as I could not manage more than one of the three numbers at a time...
It doesn't matter on average speed or distance. All that matters is staying in heart rate zone 1 and 2 and minimum of 5 hours spent in it, not very difficult to get your head around.
 

theDude

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#10
we all slowed the pace down for the slowest man….in this case a woman yet we all reaped the rewards for riding in zone 1 and 2.

Hey! That's not very nice....I tried! :p

I did think the loop around was a good idea, good to hear some encouragement pulling up the rear. I really need to get some compact crank or new cassette or something....


In order to alleviate hijacking Eric's thread.... Whereabouts are you looking to meet up? 7a.m. is a bit early to get onto the river. Workable, I suppose.... :eek:
 

Sikochi

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#11
Eric, there is absolutely no point in doing 2 hours of LSD work. You need to be doing at least between 5-7 hours of continuous L.S Distance pace for it to have the desired effect on your metabolism and cellular level. Thus why it’s called long slow distance.
FarEast, I`ve read discussions on how long LSD rides should be, and I think the comment about the need for them to be 5 hours+ was dismissed as the research was based on experienced, elite athletes and for them, then yes, the length of the ride needed to be 5+ hours before they started to impose any kind of load on their aerobic system. However, for non-elite athletes I don`t think you need to ride LSD for 5+ hours to see a training benefit. But as I said, it is not something I have studied in detail so am happy to be corrected by the relevant research studies.
 

Sikochi

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#12
And always keep in mind that one man's long is another man's short and one man's zone 1 is another man's 5...
+1 Just `cause FarEast can do these rides in Zone 1/2, doesn`t mean anyone else can.

Be very, very careful as unless you are able to perform perfect circles in your pedal stroke all you will do is get good at doing something badly, this is why power cranks were invented as they “force” perfect pedal stroke.
Yes, use one-legged drills carefully, as too much practice can disrupt your pedal stroke, as with one leg taken out of the equation, you start to pull-up with too much force. Please, no mentions of Frank Day.
 

GSAstuto

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#13
FE did an amazing job of leading this ride! If some riders struggled to keep in Z1/2 - fair enough! But the pace was definitely right on target and the riders behind the target could benefit by not having to ride a sufferfest! Just keep on! 3-6 rides later and you will have that target! Just because it' s LSD does not mean you will fit in immediately - but after a few - you will achieve the level very quickly. This is far different than a typical club ride which challenges the speed at every moment. The challenge here is entirely within you.

I rode the entire ride (and another person as well) in a 46 / 14 fixed gear. Aside from the couple of medium/low grade ascents (again at very reasonable pace) this entire ride hit the deep zone perfectly. If I had followed my own 'rules' and ridden in a proper 42 /17 or 18 - I would have hit the mark dead on.

The section up Odarumi with Yair was sublime. And then back to Tokyo with Todor, Danni and Sal finished the day with a great feeling of 'in the saddle properly'.

@Sikochi - this is why God invented a fixed gear and a tire. You want a good pedal stroke, then pull a tire down the river a few hundred km. You want a better pedal stroke, then pull it a few thousand.
 

FarEast

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#14
The counter argument to this is that most riders with 3 or more years of endurance sport experience already have a very good base that takes a lot more time to build and develop.

Most riders see this gain very rapidly when they first enter the sport but to build on these gains takes a lot more effort and that’s not just in Elite cyclists either.

Also one other point I would like to make is that many recreational cyclists actually put in more miles than the pro's I know for a fact that both Tom and Ludwig put in more miles than most of the Garmin squad and some of the Team Sky Pro Cycling team.

I totally agree that you don't need to ride 5 to 6 hours to get training benefits and like I recommended to Eric that he is better off spending his time using the two hours for intervals, sure he'll be able to keep up an impressive pace over a 2 hour ride but if you throw in some hills and extend the ride by an hour the guy is going to suffer and if he is looking to race JBCF or S,A,B in the JCRC he's going to need the endurance for races like Shuzenji or Gunma.

Simple put you won't run a marathon just because you can sprint to the shops and back.

If you are looking to ride longer and stronger then base training is the only way to go. If you are looking to increase your times for a hill climb or TT then you are better off spending the time on the trainer doing intervals.

Its different horses for different courses.

Also when you sit down and look at the zone 2 heart rates for the following you'll see that on a group ride it’s very easier for all ages to stay within the zones yet ride at the same pace. Yet another reason to stop looking at your average speeds as a way of determining if your work out was successful or not.

56 year old = Zone 2 = 131 bpm - Zone 1 = 106 bpm
46 year old = Zone 2 = 139 bpm - Zone 1 = 113 bpm
36 year old = zone 2 = 147 bpm - Zone 1 = 119 bpm

So while maybe one rider was hitting up zone 2 another rider would be hitting a very low zone 1 yet still being able to get a good training session in and thus why I open these training rides up to everyone.
 
#15
I really enjoy reading this discussion about training methods and I want to start implementing as much of it as I can. I will be riding completely fixed gear until about march to work on my cadence, form and everything else mentioned here.

Although I fear the thread has been hijacked I will meet at the locks just north of kanana-dori (318). I will be there every Monday Wednesday Friday at 7 am and will start at 7:15. If the weather report at 8 pm the night before shows a chance of precipitation higher than 40% I will cancel the ride! I will put a google maps link up later because I'm on my mobile right now.
 

FarEast

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#16
Eric as a qualified coach the best advice I can give you is this.

Have a training plan and stick to it, consistency is the most important factor start off easy then increase the work load make sure you are fueling your body correctly and make sure that you schedule in rest periods and stick to them!
 
#17
I plan to take your advice of 1 hour of high cadence and 1 hour of intervals for now and continue Tim's strict chicken broccoli diet. Once my schedule frees up a bit more I hope to setup a meet with you and Tim to write up a proper menu that I can follow rather then trying to pick out from the masses of info that you guys put up here d(^_^o)
 

StuInTokyo

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#18
This is a very interesting read, thanks everyone!

A few questions if I may.

I'm not an athlete but I wish to increase my fitness, I also do not have 5 - 7 hours very often to ride a LSD ride like suggested. Aside from working on the food intake (heathier and less of it) how would you all suggest I increase my fitness?

I know that is a rather wide open question, but I'm looking for some broad ideas :D
 

GSAstuto

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#19
YES YES YES !!! I even gave Eric my original edition of the Agnostic Cycling Guide to study - the recommendations are THE SAME! After 25yrs!

TRAIN WITH A COACH!
TRAIN TO WIN!

Otherwise - just enjoy weekend ride with the old men domestiques and 'the boys'

Period. That is it.

Eric as a qualified coach the best advice I can give you is this.

Have a training plan and stick to it, consistency is the most important factor start off easy then increase the work load make sure you are fueling your body correctly and make sure that you schedule in rest periods and stick to them!
 

FarEast

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#20
Athlete: a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina.

As soon as you start training you become an athlete : D

This is a very open question and thus I'm reluctant to give an answer as each person is different and has different goals. The first thing I suggest you do is exactly that, make a goal. It needs to be specific as just saying I want to increase my fitness is not specific also you need a time line to achieve that goal within.

Once you have a goal you can then work on how you need to go about achieving it.

For your case however we are looking at a lot more, nutrition, exercise and intensity and then also your medical record that you've spoken about and to give any real advice I would need to do an actual consultation with you.

But if you are looking for a broad idea then do this:

• Only eat recommended portions (measure and weigh everything)
• Drink more water - Only water if you can stand it
• Remove all processed food from your diet
• Replace all white pasta, rice and bread with brown
• Exercise in heart rate zone 3 for 1 hour every day.