Conconi Test - estimating anaerobic threshold

Malte

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#1
Related to the discussion Roller or Trainer I would prefer to get a Trainer with programmable Power Setting for the (only) purpose of being able to do Conconi Tests.
  • Do you have experience with this?
  • Or have you used other methods to estimate Anaerobic Threshold (AT) that do not require watt-meters (like ramp-test on track or mountain)?
 

andywood

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#2
Although not strictly the same as AT, you can measure LT if you have a heart rate monitor,quite easily.

On a trainer or flat uninterupted stretch of road do a flat 30 minute time trial. After 10 minutes press your lap button. The average heart rate on the second 20 minute lap is your LT. Measure this each month to get a more accurate figure and to track progress.

Andy

www.jyonnobitime.com/time
 

Malte

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#3
On a trainer or flat uninterupted stretch of road do a flat 30 minute time trial. After 10 minutes press your lap button. The average heart rate on the second 20 minute lap is your LT. Measure this each month to get a more accurate figure and to track progress.
Thanks, I was considering this but I find it hard to find a flat here in Tokyo that is un-interupted for ~20km. Does anybody have recommendation on good
time trial flats around Tokyo?
 

GSAstuto

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#4
I posted last year about the testing the Tokyo Metropolitan Gym offers. If you can do this, its really great and covers every aspect of your performance indicators. @Malte - I generally use the Arakawa going towards the Haneda endpoint - 10km down and 10km back. Once you do this a few times you'll have a great cardio benchmark to train by. However - my personal HR will vary quite a bit depending on recovery cycle, diet and general conditioning. And, I can always ride faster by SOP than if I glue to the HRM. I'm more likely to push myself beyond the 'meter'. I also do a shorter test at the Palace just to check my max HRM recovery point. This is very important if you are prepping for a race and want to determine how 'recovered' or 'not' you are. Basically I do a couple of below-max laps to warm up, then I will do 2 laps hardest effort using the 'Pimple' as one indicator point, then the final section sprint to the Yotsuya Intersection as the other indicator. If my max HR is indeed my max HR - then I know I'm in pretty good shape. If I cannot get up to my max HR I know I'm not fully recovered from previous training or have other physical issues to deal with and will address my subsequents rides accordingly.
 

Malte

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#5
I posted last year about the testing the Tokyo Metropolitan Gym offers. If you can do this, its really great and covers every aspect of your performance indicators. @Malte - I generally use the Arakawa going towards the Haneda endpoint - 10km down and 10km back. Once you do this a few times you'll have a great cardio benchmark to train by.
Hi Tim, I guess you were referring to >>this post<<, this sounds very interesting, I hope they have the bigger masks now.
 

Malte

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#7
Did the Arakawa until the first bumper and back several times until the 30min were over. Had the Average HR and Actual HR on the Garmin screen and try to keep it at 180 (guessed that number by looking at some old climb HR logs). However it was very tough, especially trying to motivate oneself to keep a high intensity on the flat :(, the wind was blowing strong upwards, ended with 176bpm for the last 20min. I guess this test might be much easier on a hill (then it should also directly provide ones FTP), might try it tomorrow on Yabitsu :)
 

basilleroux

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#8
Joe Friel's blog has lots of good advice on testing, as does trainingpeaks.com.

I do mine on my turbo as it means conditions are consistent from 1 test to the next.
 

Sikochi

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#9
I would have to ask, why the focus on the Conconi Tests? Nowadays, as you mentioned, the more common term is FTP, as devised by Andy Coggan, and there are seven common ways to determine it
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2008/05/seven-deadly-sins.html
A MAP test is just one way.

You don`t have to precisely know your thresholds, as you can train fine without them. Just do a 2 x 20 and try and hold a steady effort. If at the end of the second 20, the effort level was too easy, increase it next time. If it was impossible to complete the second interval, then lower the effort level next time. The main thing, is being able to hold the effort level constant and having the power meter has shown me that whilst overall effort was fine, the fluctuations within that meant I was anywhere from L3 - L6 rather than sat in L4 and likewise with my VO2 sets.

As GSAstuto noted, HR is flawed due to so many factors, for instance, due to cardiac drift then if you are trying to hold a constant HR for a given period, your power is dropping off. Like you said, it is common (I am a prime example) of having a different FTP on hills and flats - there is no way I can do a VO2 set on the flat, as I can`t produce the required wattage, something I have to train - and motivation is also a factor.
 

andywood

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#11
As GSAstuto noted, HR is flawed due to so many factors, for instance, due to cardiac drift then if you are trying to hold a constant HR for a given period, your power is dropping off.

Know exactly what you mean, but would it be unreasonable to say that power is flawed as it decreases over time at a fixed heart rate... Depends what you are trying to measure really. Heart rate is certainly an excellent monitor of your body's condition at a given time and an excellent monitor of how your body reacts to exercise during an exercise session.

Andy

www.jyonnobitime.com/time
 

Malte

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#12
I would have to ask, why the focus on the Conconi Tests? Nowadays, as you mentioned, the more common term is FTP, as devised by Andy Coggan, and there are seven common ways to determine it
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2008/05/seven-deadly-sins.html
A MAP test is just one way.
By Conconi-test I meant a ramp-test like MAP. With a Trainer I could adjust the power/resistance and should be able to see my AT, FTP deflection point. I don't have a power meter but would like to check some power figures (without the need to heavy invest in a power-meter).
 

Malte

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#13
Malte, if you did an average of 176 over 20 mins, you must be really very, very fit, training for top performance regularly. A hidden champion among the recent TCC joiners?
Haha, that would be nice, maybe I have a strong heart but weak legs :eek:
I guess my HR is just a bit more scaled to the upper range (max 193), it doesn't give me more power though.
 

Sikochi

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#14
As GSAstuto noted, HR is flawed due to so many factors, for instance, due to cardiac drift then if you are trying to hold a constant HR for a given period, your power is dropping off.

Know exactly what you mean, but would it be unreasonable to say that power is flawed as it decreases over time at a fixed heart rate... Depends what you are trying to measure really. Heart rate is certainly an excellent monitor of your body's condition at a given time and an excellent monitor of how your body reacts to exercise during an exercise session.

Andy

www.jyonnobitime.com/time
We`ve had this discussion before. ;) On a personal note, I just don`t want to know my HR, as having my HR on the screen in front of me would make me want to slow down, as I would look at it and think, "**** that`s high, don`t like that", whereas with power it`s just a figure. For instance, yesterday`s VO2 session I finally got the hang of it for the last set with the power meter and held the targeted level, but with a HR I know I would have eased off.
 

Sikochi

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#15
By Conconi-test I meant a ramp-test like MAP. With a Trainer I could adjust the power/resistance and should be able to see my AT, FTP deflection point. I don't have a power meter but would like to check some power figures (without the need to heavy invest in a power-meter).
There are some online calculators that will give you a ballpark figure for FTP. If you want to use a trainer for this, then you need to check it`s power curve is accurate, as otherwise, it will just be giving you the wrong figures. Like I mentioned, a standard 2 x 20 will give you a fairly accurate figure for FTP - I think it`s one of the 7 ways.
 

Malte

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#16
Did the Arakawa until the first bumper and back several times until the 30min were over. Had the Average HR and Actual HR on the Garmin screen and try to keep it at 180 (guessed that number by looking at some old climb HR logs). However it was very tough, especially trying to motivate oneself to keep a high intensity on the flat :(, the wind was blowing strong upwards, ended with 176bpm for the last 20min. I guess this test might be much easier on a hill (then it should also directly provide ones FTP), might try it tomorrow on Yabitsu :)
Tried Yabitsu HC and actually my average HR was lower today, maybe I still felt yesterdays strain - 171BPM. Again I had a hard time to push myself to go harder as I was the only one at 7AM. Next I climbed up 518 piano style and suddenly one guy approached from behind and I catch his wheel. We went up together with 181BPM, legs hurt but breathing was still regular. Last was Wada and my legs had no power anymore and heartbeat was at 166BPM (also nobody around to pull me up).

It looks to me that my bottlenecks are my legs and my mind and not my cardiovascular system. My legs explode after 60km (on high intensity) while my breath is still regular. Maybe have to work on my base training (boring :eek:uch:) - @2k now.
 

GSAstuto

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#17
This is very true! I use HR as nearly my exclusive indicator of 'rediness'. If I cannot reach my Max HRM within an interval I KNOW my power / performance is DOWN. Same thing on a rivet run on the Arakawa - If i cannot hold Max HRM and get sub 1.30 KM , I KNOW I'm not in form. Then for event prep or even mid-ride, I can hammer up and do a quick check - if, for example 2 or 3hrs into a ride and I cannot reach max HR, then I know I'm fading and need to go into conserve mode. However, if I can repeatedly hit my max HR then I will push harder until I start to drop.

BTW - this is exactly what I'm doing when I climb extended routes - I will cycle through sets of intervals and continuously check my HR - or just 'by feel' if I'm not wearing a HRM. Then accordingly increase or decrease the corner attacks. Know you body and how you are feeling throughout all the stages of an event and you'll be best able to pace, train and prepare for the full ride. Doesn't matter if it's a pottering tour or TT.

Hitting the wave of anerobic threshold then being able to bounce off it without going completely lactic is the fine art of riding hard and keeping on the rivet. Getting some biofeedback is cool and gives you a reference point.


As GSAstuto noted, HR is flawed due to so many factors, for instance, due to cardiac drift then if you are trying to hold a constant HR for a given period, your power is dropping off.

Know exactly what you mean, but would it be unreasonable to say that power is flawed as it decreases over time at a fixed heart rate... Depends what you are trying to measure really. Heart rate is certainly an excellent monitor of your body's condition at a given time and an excellent monitor of how your body reacts to exercise during an exercise session.

Andy

www.jyonnobitime.com/time
 

GSAstuto

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#18
I don't believe I said it was flawed at all. opposite - actually. It IS a good indicator - in fact - it's a primary indicator, though maybe not THE indicator of power potential, but rather condition or form. For example - my muscle potential is not changing so much compared to my sterol levels recovery rate which directly influences cardio recovery (especially as you get older). So, for me - HR is most important and then just maintenance as much I can for the muscle fibers to prevent further atrophy.

You guys in your 20's, 30's and to some extent 40's have a completely different game to play.

As GSAstuto noted, HR is flawed due to so many factors, for instance, due to cardiac drift then if you are trying to hold a constant HR for a given period, your power is dropping off.

Know exactly what you mean, but would it be unreasonable to say that power is flawed as it decreases over time at a fixed heart rate... Depends what you are trying to measure really. Heart rate is certainly an excellent monitor of your body's condition at a given time and an excellent monitor of how your body reacts to exercise during an exercise session.

Andy

www.jyonnobitime.com/time