GSAstuto
Maximum Pace
- Oct 11, 2009
- 974
- 253
I get alot of questions regarding Chinese and Taiwan carbon manufacturing. So, thought I'd share some of the real, inside knowledge.
Like your iPhone, economy of scale matters. China and Taiwan have much larger work forces who are willing (and able) to do very tedious, meticulous , hand labor at economically practical wages. Building carbon parts requires alot of manual steps with a fairly high degree of precision. The craftsperson needs to follow a 'recipe' exactly in order for the final product to come out of the oven perfectly.
The raw materials must be of high quality for the end product to be high quality. Start with junk and you end up with junk - or close to it.
The recipe has to be good. Carbon layup procedure is critical to the end result. Afterall, this is where the material itself is actually formed.
So - how does this translate to bicycle stuff?
1) The name 'brands' will contract and occupy the best suppliers and manufacturers. Their reputation is based on providing consistently high quality products. They will pay the highest per unit costs and guarantee the best wages. So the factories building 'name brand' components will always have the best trained craftspeople and access to the best raw materials.
2) The clone factories will produce components based on a merchandise demand market only. And then flood through channels like Ali-Baba, e-Bay, etc, where they know that at least <someone> will buy a clone becuase it's cheaper. Clone factories RARELY make name brand components or parts. Contrary to urban myth the same factory that makes, for example, a 'Chinarello' is definitely NOT the same factory that makes a real 'PInnarello'. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
3) Name Brand contracted factories will NOT risk their contracts by 3rd shift, clones or copyright violation. If they do, they could lose the contract. Far too much is at stake - and including the government, themselves guarantee the IP. So -there is actually very high degree of IP management inside the brand name mfg factories. It's only OUTSIDE these factories that the mass cloning business takes place.
4) What about generics? Many name brand mfg's will release molds after a few years and let the factory produce their own versions with some small changes. This benefits both the factory AND the brand because it keeps the supply chain moving and the factory economically healthy. Factory internal R&D is gowing as a result, and many factories are producing their own original molds and components that can be leased by the brands. This, in turn, allows for a greater variety of components at more reasonable prices.
5) Hybrids. Some makers, like us in fact, take a hybrid approach. Since we are a factory rep, we can access directly all the molds AND the R&D internal. Since we are using outside consumer (rider) feedback, we 'push' changes and requests back to the factory, rather than rely on 100% factory driven offerings. This means we can generate unique, hybrid components that cost less than a 100% original mold because we really don't need the extensive R&D to develop a 'new recipe' or mold when a pre-existing one may work just fine.
6) Accountability. At the name brand factory level. They are highly accountable. And most will respond to normal service, warranty requests and procedures as any company. However, many clone factories simply contract 'paper agents' to push their products. These agents never stock anything or even touch it. They just provide marketing channels and have quite low accountability. Caveat Emptor.
7) Cutting out the middle. In the bicycle food chain there are alot of middle players. There are assemblers, sub-distributors, aggregators, channel partners, local distributors and finally dealers. Every step the component has to take to get to your doorstep costs something in terms of direct cost or profit margin. Obviously reducing the middle can reduce the end user cost. But, that also has a cost. Because - basically, a factory is a factory. Their job is to pump out hundreds if not thousands of parts a day. If there is not a scalable network of channels outside the facotry, it cannot exist. And the factory, itself, cannot engage in this type of network building. So, typically only very small factories or individuals will deal 'direct'. All the rest will rely on network of agents, distributors, etc.
8) Reality Check. The bicycle frame itself is pretty mature and well known these days. The reality check is that , with everyone sharing roughly similar materials, methods and geometries - all the bikes will ride about the same. The most technically advanced bikes will have very slight advantages in ter ms of aerodynamics, dampening and weight. Which may result (depending on the rider) in a few seconds advantage per km over their less technically advanced counterparts. Knowledge is common. If someone comes up with a great idea, then it is quickly incorporated or copied into the majority of designs and manufacturers.
9) What do you want? If you are looking for the bleeding edge of technical innovation and performance, then you'll be getting your components from smaller individual manufacturers or very large brands that have the capacity to sink millions of $$ into R&D and closed door construction. If you are looking for 'something good to ride' , then the world is your oyster - becuase it will actually be pretty hard NOT to find something that fits your budget and purpose.
10 ) Some internal discussions. I meet with carbon fabs on a regular basis and always have interesting notes to share. One of the key topics is materials. Because the raw materials are really the most important part of making good carbon stuff. Several of the factories I meet with insist only on Japanese and EU /U.S. produced materials. from companies like Toray, GE, West, DuPont, etc. Even though the materials cost alot more than domestic produced materials - the brand mfgs (and quality) just warrant it. More and more Taiwan is producing higher quality chemicals and fabrics. So - I'm seeing this introduced more into the production. Especially for smaller parts. And we've also seen some high quality domestic Chinese fabrics and chemicals being tested with good results. But, I'd say that most name brand factories are using Japanese fabrics and to some degree Taiwanese fabrics and chemicals as the majority.
At the clone factory level - I've seen some pretty crazy stuff. One factory just buys the expired pre-preg at very low 'waste' fees and then reactivates it and uses it to build frames and other parts. The result is a very cheap frame with a very funky layup. It's heavy enough that it probably won't break. in fact the factory GM was proudly showing me the testing of one bike - and I admit - it would probably stand up to just about anything thrown at it. However - due to the layup method and material used, the lifespan of such frame is limited and the performance as in uniform flexibility, etc, is not so great. Plus they weren't that 'true' either. Meaning - the final bonding and hard part insertion was not very accurate. But, hey, if you're just looking to ride carbon, you can get these all day long at about $150 - 175 / ea.
Anyway - just a start on this thread. If anyone has any comments or questions - fire away!
Like your iPhone, economy of scale matters. China and Taiwan have much larger work forces who are willing (and able) to do very tedious, meticulous , hand labor at economically practical wages. Building carbon parts requires alot of manual steps with a fairly high degree of precision. The craftsperson needs to follow a 'recipe' exactly in order for the final product to come out of the oven perfectly.
The raw materials must be of high quality for the end product to be high quality. Start with junk and you end up with junk - or close to it.
The recipe has to be good. Carbon layup procedure is critical to the end result. Afterall, this is where the material itself is actually formed.
So - how does this translate to bicycle stuff?
1) The name 'brands' will contract and occupy the best suppliers and manufacturers. Their reputation is based on providing consistently high quality products. They will pay the highest per unit costs and guarantee the best wages. So the factories building 'name brand' components will always have the best trained craftspeople and access to the best raw materials.
2) The clone factories will produce components based on a merchandise demand market only. And then flood through channels like Ali-Baba, e-Bay, etc, where they know that at least <someone> will buy a clone becuase it's cheaper. Clone factories RARELY make name brand components or parts. Contrary to urban myth the same factory that makes, for example, a 'Chinarello' is definitely NOT the same factory that makes a real 'PInnarello'. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
3) Name Brand contracted factories will NOT risk their contracts by 3rd shift, clones or copyright violation. If they do, they could lose the contract. Far too much is at stake - and including the government, themselves guarantee the IP. So -there is actually very high degree of IP management inside the brand name mfg factories. It's only OUTSIDE these factories that the mass cloning business takes place.
4) What about generics? Many name brand mfg's will release molds after a few years and let the factory produce their own versions with some small changes. This benefits both the factory AND the brand because it keeps the supply chain moving and the factory economically healthy. Factory internal R&D is gowing as a result, and many factories are producing their own original molds and components that can be leased by the brands. This, in turn, allows for a greater variety of components at more reasonable prices.
5) Hybrids. Some makers, like us in fact, take a hybrid approach. Since we are a factory rep, we can access directly all the molds AND the R&D internal. Since we are using outside consumer (rider) feedback, we 'push' changes and requests back to the factory, rather than rely on 100% factory driven offerings. This means we can generate unique, hybrid components that cost less than a 100% original mold because we really don't need the extensive R&D to develop a 'new recipe' or mold when a pre-existing one may work just fine.
6) Accountability. At the name brand factory level. They are highly accountable. And most will respond to normal service, warranty requests and procedures as any company. However, many clone factories simply contract 'paper agents' to push their products. These agents never stock anything or even touch it. They just provide marketing channels and have quite low accountability. Caveat Emptor.
7) Cutting out the middle. In the bicycle food chain there are alot of middle players. There are assemblers, sub-distributors, aggregators, channel partners, local distributors and finally dealers. Every step the component has to take to get to your doorstep costs something in terms of direct cost or profit margin. Obviously reducing the middle can reduce the end user cost. But, that also has a cost. Because - basically, a factory is a factory. Their job is to pump out hundreds if not thousands of parts a day. If there is not a scalable network of channels outside the facotry, it cannot exist. And the factory, itself, cannot engage in this type of network building. So, typically only very small factories or individuals will deal 'direct'. All the rest will rely on network of agents, distributors, etc.
8) Reality Check. The bicycle frame itself is pretty mature and well known these days. The reality check is that , with everyone sharing roughly similar materials, methods and geometries - all the bikes will ride about the same. The most technically advanced bikes will have very slight advantages in ter ms of aerodynamics, dampening and weight. Which may result (depending on the rider) in a few seconds advantage per km over their less technically advanced counterparts. Knowledge is common. If someone comes up with a great idea, then it is quickly incorporated or copied into the majority of designs and manufacturers.
9) What do you want? If you are looking for the bleeding edge of technical innovation and performance, then you'll be getting your components from smaller individual manufacturers or very large brands that have the capacity to sink millions of $$ into R&D and closed door construction. If you are looking for 'something good to ride' , then the world is your oyster - becuase it will actually be pretty hard NOT to find something that fits your budget and purpose.
10 ) Some internal discussions. I meet with carbon fabs on a regular basis and always have interesting notes to share. One of the key topics is materials. Because the raw materials are really the most important part of making good carbon stuff. Several of the factories I meet with insist only on Japanese and EU /U.S. produced materials. from companies like Toray, GE, West, DuPont, etc. Even though the materials cost alot more than domestic produced materials - the brand mfgs (and quality) just warrant it. More and more Taiwan is producing higher quality chemicals and fabrics. So - I'm seeing this introduced more into the production. Especially for smaller parts. And we've also seen some high quality domestic Chinese fabrics and chemicals being tested with good results. But, I'd say that most name brand factories are using Japanese fabrics and to some degree Taiwanese fabrics and chemicals as the majority.
At the clone factory level - I've seen some pretty crazy stuff. One factory just buys the expired pre-preg at very low 'waste' fees and then reactivates it and uses it to build frames and other parts. The result is a very cheap frame with a very funky layup. It's heavy enough that it probably won't break. in fact the factory GM was proudly showing me the testing of one bike - and I admit - it would probably stand up to just about anything thrown at it. However - due to the layup method and material used, the lifespan of such frame is limited and the performance as in uniform flexibility, etc, is not so great. Plus they weren't that 'true' either. Meaning - the final bonding and hard part insertion was not very accurate. But, hey, if you're just looking to ride carbon, you can get these all day long at about $150 - 175 / ea.
Anyway - just a start on this thread. If anyone has any comments or questions - fire away!