CHANPON CLINCHER

TOM

Maximum Pace
#1
Chanpon clincher or mixing tire sizes :D...

To you, which makes more sense for a typical 150km ride at speed with a couple of toges and fast descents ?

(let's say 150km with some Green Line, Shiraishi-toge, Sadamine-toge, Yamabushi-toge)

1. Non-chanpon Front 23mm / Rear 23mm
2. Non-chanpon F 25 / R 25
3. Non-chanpon F 20 / R 20
4. Chanpon F 20 / R 23
5. Chanpon F 20 / R 25
6. Chanpon F 25 / R 20
7. Chanpon F 25 / R 23
8. Chanpon F 23 / R 20
9. Chanpon F 23 / R 25
10. other possible combinations I may have forgotten :confused:

Most of us ride a non-chanpon (i.e. orthodox) 23mm combination but I'm particularly keen to find out what special effect - if any - chanpon #6 would produce, namely a wide 25mm up front with a super skinny 20mm in the back... improved traction? improved grip in the downhill cornering? Not much difference at all?
 
Sep 2, 2009
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#2
Not mixed tyres on my road bike, but always ride BMX with a thinner tyre on the back, and that is when racing, riding dirt jumps, and on street.
 
Jun 9, 2011
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tokyo
#3
I ran a 20f/23r for a few months because i accidentally bought a 20cc tire. No handling problems even on steep and twisty descents (tsuru toge) and not a single flat before I switched back to a 23 for the front (that was luck). It may have been my immigration but it felt that the 20cc tire had lass rolling resistance. The only reason I'm running a 23 in front now is because the 20cc tire always looked skinny and made me a little nervous. Performed fine for me, though. A skinny front tire is probably fine unless you plan on riding dirt trails.

With BMX, racers usually run a fat front and skinny rear because traction and control in corners is handled mostly by the front tire. The skinnier rear tire is used for less rolling resistance. if you're not riding dirt, though, there's not much need for a fatter front tire and often the only street guys you'll see with mismatched tire widths are guys that use the same bike for street and DJ.
 
Sep 2, 2009
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#4
With BMX, racers usually run a fat front and skinny rear because traction and control in corners is handled mostly by the front tire. The skinnier rear tire is used for less rolling resistance. if you're not riding dirt, though, there's not much need for a fatter front tire and often the only street guys you'll see with mismatched tire widths are guys that use the same bike for street and DJ.
First part true, second part nah.
 

GSAstuto

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Oct 11, 2009
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www.roadfixie.com
#5
If you are racing on these , I have only 2 recommendations:

1) Open Corsa CX w/ latex tube @ 23c front and rear. With only few exception it is the lowest rolling resistance tire out there. And 23 v 20 on harsh descents will give you a little more compliance for cornering hard and braking.

2) Daiwabo Seamless. Should be the Ferrari of any tire out there. Daiwabo (SOYO) is famous for the only NJS tire provider and their seamless tire is insanely awesome. Clincher version is available and it rocks! Again - use latex tube. ABout 25,000 yen / ea.

My other choice is the Tufo Elite Jet. At around 160gr it's one of the lightest .... ooops, forgot .. you're riding clinchers ... if you rode tubular then you'd choice of so many great riding racing tires..
 
Sep 2, 2009
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#6
If you are racing on these , I have only 2 recommendations:

1) Open Corsa CX w/ latex tube @ 23c front and rear. With only few exception it is the lowest rolling resistance tire out there. And 23 v 20 on harsh descents will give you a little more compliance for cornering hard and braking.
Yeah, I love these tyres. I could be wrong, but I think Vittoria have discontinued these. They are on clearance lists in most online retailers, and a lot cheaper now than before... Anyone know if this is accurate?
 

AlanW

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Jan 30, 2007
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#7
Saw some research indicating that slightly wider tyres than the 23s most people ride have lower rolling resistance, but aero drag is higher at fast riding speeds. Particularly on the front wheel. In fact Continental made a matched pair of tyres with a 22 front and 24 rear for this reason.
For the type of ride you describe, I wouldn't bother changing tyres but would pay more attention to avoiding flappy clothing etc to reduce drag.
 

GSAstuto

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#8
You would know better - but they are in the 2012 Catalog. The Diamante's are darn nice, too - but at that level, I'd go for the Soyo. And I think most Pro riders are using tubular - so they'll be riding Dugast , Veloflex, Soyo or custom Vittoria unless they are embarrassingly sponsored by a clincher provider and 'have to' ride them.

Yeah, I love these tyres. I could be wrong, but I think Vittoria have discontinued these. They are on clearance lists in most online retailers, and a lot cheaper now than before... Anyone know if this is accurate?
 

FarEast

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May 25, 2009
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#9
23's front and back all the way baby...... nothing else used in the Pro Peloton unless its spring classics, TT's or Crit racing.
 

Ludwig

Speeding Up
Oct 9, 2008
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Setagaya-ku, Tokyo
#11
Saw some research indicating that slightly wider tyres than the 23s most people ride have lower rolling resistance, but aero drag is higher at fast riding speeds.
That's also my experience. When I mount 34s on my cyclocross without any profile left, I feel no difference when riding in the flat. However, I just cannot reach the same top speeds when going down mountains.

On my last two months or so on the bike before I had to stop I had mounted a combo of Specialized 23 front and 25 rear. This allowed me to reduce the tyre pressure without risking flats. That was a bit more comfortable, and it also allowed me to go off-road and do some really long and tough tracks. (But that's not just because of the tyre width and pressure - the Specialized tyres offer a lot more grip than others, which of course also translates into higher rolling resistance.)
 

Sikochi

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Sep 13, 2010
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Kochi
#12
Chanpon clincher or mixing tire sizes :D...

To you, which makes more sense for a typical 150km ride at speed with a couple of toges and fast descents ?
For a 150Km the tyre choice that makes most sense, is the one that will produce the least flats and is the most comfortable. Like AlanW mentioned, wider tyres have lower rolling resistance due to less deformation irt the contact patch, so given that your rear tyre has more weight on it (55%-60%), then putting the thinner tyre on the back seems like the wrong way round to me. Also, wider tyres tend to be more comfortable as can be run at lower pressure with less chance of pinch flats. I have the standard 25/25 combo.
 

GSAstuto

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#13
I'm with James on this -- 23/23 period. There is far more to be gained in aero by having decent deep rims than any change in tire width, btw. For pave , extreme rough, then i'll change to 25/25 or even up to 28. Ultra narrow has some advantages in TT with matched rimset and very high pressures. But this is an event consideration - not necessarily a day-to-day riding configuration.

But as you change tire profile - you should be changing rim profile to optimize it. Unless you are using tubulars - which the tire itself determines the profile above and beyond the rim trough. By using tubular I can easily depressure and ride any rougher road and achieve comfort AND compliance without risk of flatting. In fact for most CX work we would run our tires no more than 5-7, then for pave - 6-8 and then for smooth 8-10. This is the versatility of a good tire / rim combo. Not to mention ability to ride flat.

Case in point: Last week's e-performance I was riding my FG with a 21mm x18mm carbon rim with mounted Vittoria Corsa TT - typically a pretty fragile tire and meant primarily for only TT. But, the rolling resistance is so low - i's fun to ride and I'm an old guy - so I like to get as much fun I can per km. I played around doing some CX work (with a TT tire!!) at only 5bar. Then set it to 10bar for doing Norikura - went up at night, then back I hit the cattle grates HARD and ripped the sidewall. Big deal. Slow leak. A little Stan's and I'm still riding it! This tire has been almost my daily FG ride since Kusatsu last year when I put it on new. Its been all over the Greenline, TArakawa, Norikura 3x and whatever else I threw at it. Except for the Diablo roadbike , which I'm riding Conti Sprinter-gators (tubs) this is it. Every tire on my bikes are 23's, btw. Except for my EVO-Pave's .
 

kiwisimon

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Dec 14, 2006
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#14
thread dredge: What is a good tire with good wet grip and still long wearing? Last racing tires I had were about 20 years ago, two tone black and green Michelins, have things changed much? Not looking to race but will be training on a road bike with gears so I need faster tires than the 700X34s I usually ride on the road. Oh clinchers.
 

GSAstuto

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#17
Ok. I set 23 rear and 22.5 for Tashiro . Custom Veloflex. He managed Top 10 throughout. All Haute Rote including TT. I based on his rider weight, compliance requirements, wheel stiffness and stage requirements . maybe not 100% perfect each day, but close enough for podiums . My tires are made custom to order and I generally specific differing tread durometer and width to match the events. I personally rode 23.5mm rear and 22.5mm front. With general 8.0bar rear and 7.5bar front, Tread is harder to take consideration of road hazard. And everyone's tubes were silicon/latex to reduce issue of minors puncs. And also reduce leak down associated w/ 4+hr stages.
 

GSAstuto

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Oct 11, 2009
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#19
Currently riding mainly Veloflex and SOYO. Both companies make to order. I also have some 24mm SOYO that are still in testing. I really love the seamless feel, but had issues with sidewall wear in particular at lower pressures where the rim will cut through the sidewall and cause blowout. That has never happened on either Veloflex or Vittoria. Tire profiles work hand in hand with rim profile, so matching both together is important. The current event wheels I have use Equinox blanks with 23mm wide and minimal channel. They fit the Veloflex or Vittoria perfectly at 22mm-23.5mm widths. The 24mm SOYO work better on 24mm width, no channel rims. On narrower rims they feel a little 'squishy'. The only reason I like slightly narrower tire up front is more agile when out of saddle at hard climbs and cornering transition feels better. With all that being said, though, I love riding the 25mm Corsa SC's for their insane suppleness and smooth road feel. Just inconvenient having to pump them up every 2hrs. Hence the experimentation with the 24mm SOYO w/butyl tube.

I don't ride clinchers, so have no real clue or feedback regarding them , and it's interesting to follow here cause people ask about them all the time, but I can't really make a recommendation other than the OpenCX or GPS4000 which generally seem in high favor. I did try Schwalbe Ultremos a couple times and wasn't happy with them. Very grippy , but even on 23mm felt like I was 'falling off' the rim. Finally at 8bar+ they started to feel agile, hpwever, exceeded rim operating pressure and felt harsh.

Uphill only TT the narrower , harder tires are in more favor. I saw this as well, with either 20-22mm Veloflex, Vittoria or Tufo being preferred. I do think SOYO has a strong entry here with their h160 . Effectively 19mm, seamless, feels like a 22 but drives like a 18mm . Super super light and quick. Riders over 60kg would probably not like it though. Especially on any descent or hard cornering. it's basically a track TT tire with a hint of road tread to make it legal.

So, chanpon or not? I think goes much deeper than just width. Event, pressure, weight, rim, durometer, aerodynamics, utility, all come into the decision. No? Hell, a MTB poacher sat in our bunch for 15km transit at 45kph+ . No one had the guts to kick him out. Major props. And he was taking turns at the front! Knobbies and all!
 

zenbiker

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Mar 4, 2008
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Chofu
#20
I have (I think) 7 wheel sets ranging from cheapo Akium race clinchers to Zipps latest 404 tubulars....
If I were to be blindfolded and earplugged, then sent for a lap at Oifuto, I probably wouldnt be able to tell you which wheel set was on the bike!.
Would also make a fantastic YouTube video!