Botched tubular tire install - how to tell

j-sworks

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#1
Ok so I'm sure there will be a few laughs at this post and at my expense, but I need some help.

This is my first time installing tubular tires and I want to be sure that I did it correct, so I'm hoping that people could post some things that or pictures of things to look out for that would indicate that it's not installed correctly and will cause issues.

I can tell you that I used too much glue around the nipple hole on the rear rim so there is some visible glue on the "bead" area, and I'm not sure if this is just in my head but it seems like both tires have a slight bump where the nipple is (on the side that contacts the road). When spinning the tires I can feel a slight bump where the nipples are, again on the side that contacts the road, but it's not bad, just barley noticeable.

Also the instructions say to make sure the nipple sits straight after installed through the rim, front is cool, the rear is very very slightly askew.

Thanks.
 

FarEast

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#2
The bump could be due to the valve hole eye is not deep enough for the tubular you are using - it's very common and I respolved the issue on my wheels by taking a dremel to them.
 

j-sworks

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#3
The bump could be due to the valve hole eye is not deep enough for the tubular you are using - it's very common and I respolved the issue on my wheels by taking a dremel to them.
They all came as a set, mavic tires and wheel, so I'd hope they got it right.

Is that something that I don't want to ride on? I mean unsafe?
 

FarEast

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#6
Ok when you say nipple hole are you talking about the "Spoke Nipples" or the Valve hole?

Mavic's are incredible wheels with a very high QA so my guess is that while you were mounting the tire it slipped and the valve is not properly aligned. One of the tricks I was taught as a junior (But it adds 12 hours to the process) was to glue the valve area first and then leave to dry with the rest of the rim and tire hanging off and dry (not glued) once the valve area is securely bonded you then finish the process.

This basically garuntees that the tubular won't slip durring the remainder of the process.

The lumps aren't dangerous but can cause accelerated wear and tear on the tires and reduce the performance of the set, however if the processes was done poorly then the lump could be an area of concern for rolling the tire. To see if the bond is sound deflate the tire slightly and see if you can roll the tire off and over the rim.
 

j-sworks

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#7
Ok when you say nipple hole are you talking about the "Spoke Nipples" or the Valve hole?

Mavic's are incredible wheels with a very high QA so my guess is that while you were mounting the tire it slipped and the valve is not properly aligned. One of the tricks I was taught as a junior (But it adds 12 hours to the process) was to glue the valve area first and then leave to dry with the rest of the rim and tire hanging off and dry (not glued) once the valve area is securely bonded you then finish the process.

This basically garuntees that the tubular won't slip durring the remainder of the process.

The lumps aren't dangerous but can cause accelerated wear and tear on the tires and reduce the performance of the set, however if the processes was done poorly then the lump could be an area of concern for rolling the tire. To see if the bond is sound deflate the tire slightly and see if you can roll the tire off and over the rim.
Yes sorry I mean that I used too much glue around the valve hole opening, all the instructions said the same thing - pay special attention to use enough glue here, and yes I think your right about the slipping. The front went well because the tire was easy to get around the wheel but the rear gave me some trouble and I had to work-it over the rim, so I can see that I probably didn't pay enough attention to the straightness of the nipple.

When you say "see if you can roll the tire over the rim" do you mean see if I can take the tire off the rim? I mean how much force should I use? I have a history of over tightening things and always have to monitor my monkey tightening.

Thanks for helping
 

Trek DJ

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#8
OK, here is the process....I will ignore your lump issue. This is for road tires and for CX tires for most conditions.

1) Use Mastik-1 or Panaracer glue. Avoid the white glues, 3M fastack etc., and avoid that shithouse minoura tubular tape as its for lazy people who like to endanger riders around them. Nothing like having some chumps tire roll off off his rim in front of you. I have been there a few times, not fun.
1a) Stretch out the tire on a rim, pump up to 120psi or whatever you want. Wait a few days, the more the better. This will help ease installation.
2) clean surfaces of both the tire and rim with acetone or alcohol. Get a very fine steel wool etc., and get some roughness to the rim surface. Yes, also do this to carbon rims, its not going to damage them.
3) Make sure all surfaces are clean
4) Pump up tire to like 40psi to give it shape, usually it turns inside out around this psi.
5) paint on a thin layer of glue on the tire and the rim. make sure you get enough glue on the outer parts of basetape and rim as this is where a strong bond is needed.
6) Let 1st layers try overnight.
7) Go back and put on another layer on the rim and tire. Vittoria's tend to soak up a lot of glue. Let dry again overnight. (this is assuming you are using a new rim)
8) Finally go back and put a layer on the tire, let dry a couple minutes. (from experience you can also put this layer on the rim but most people rec. putting the final glue job on the tire)
9) deflate tire. Now stand the wheel up between your waist and feet (on a clean surface). Stand it up with the valve hole pointing up. Grip the tire with the valve between your left/right hands. Insert into valve and stretch the tire (not too hard, not too little, just stready pressure) and work the tire onto the rim. You will get some glue on your hands or whatever. Keep stretching that tire equally with left/right hands and finally get that tire seated onto the rim.
10) give it a spin and take out any obvious wobbles. Add 20-40 psi and again re-set as needed.
11) you are set. Pump up to 120 and let it sit, ideally for a day before using.

Point 9 should take out that lump in 95.5% of the tires you are gluing. Unless of course its a cheap ass pair of $20 Vittoria Rally training tubulars like the Kazak National team uses (and wins on).

5 layers total might be overdoing it but this is for a new tire/rim.

Prepare to swear a lot when taking off the tire using the above method.
 

j-sworks

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Feb 5, 2012
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#9
OK, here is the process....I will ignore your lump issue. This is for road tires and for CX tires for most conditions.

1) Use Mastik-1 or Panaracer glue. Avoid the white glues, 3M fastack etc., and avoid that shithouse minoura tubular tape as its for lazy people who like to endanger riders around them. Nothing like having some chumps tire roll off off his rim in front of you. I have been there a few times, not fun.
1a) Stretch out the tire on a rim, pump up to 120psi or whatever you want. Wait a few days, the more the better. This will help ease installation.
2) clean surfaces of both the tire and rim with acetone or alcohol. Get a very fine steel wool etc., and get some roughness to the rim surface. Yes, also do this to carbon rims, its not going to damage them.
3) Make sure all surfaces are clean
4) Pump up tire to like 40psi to give it shape, usually it turns inside out around this psi.
5) paint on a thin layer of glue on the tire and the rim. make sure you get enough glue on the outer parts of basetape and rim as this is where a strong bond is needed.
6) Let 1st layers try overnight.
7) Go back and put on another layer on the rim and tire. Vittoria's tend to soak up a lot of glue. Let dry again overnight. (this is assuming you are using a new rim)
8) Finally go back and put a layer on the tire, let dry a couple minutes. (from experience you can also put this layer on the rim but most people rec. putting the final glue job on the tire)
9) deflate tire. Now stand the wheel up between your waist and feet (on a clean surface). Stand it up with the valve hole pointing up. Grip the tire with the valve between your left/right hands. Insert into valve and stretch the tire (not too hard, not too little, just stready pressure) and work the tire onto the rim. You will get some glue on your hands or whatever. Keep stretching that tire equally with left/right hands and finally get that tire seated onto the rim.
10) give it a spin and take out any obvious wobbles. Add 20-40 psi and again re-set as needed.
11) you are set. Pump up to 120 and let it sit, ideally for a day before using.

Point 9 should take out that lump in 95.5% of the tires you are gluing. Unless of course its a cheap ass pair of $20 Vittoria Rally training tubulars like the Kazak National team uses (and wins on).

5 layers total might be overdoing it but this is for a new tire/rim.

Prepare to swear a lot when taking off the tire using the above method.
Thanks of or the detailed SOP.

There were only some small variations between this and the instruction manual that came from mavic, leaving the glued tire sit overnight with the rims. One thing that made me pause was the assumption of a pre-glued tire that I saw a few mechanics talking about on YouTube, but I couldn't tell be cause the Mavic tires are black on both the top and bottom so I could not see or feel anything.

I think what maybe the issue with the rear lump is the fact that the tire nipple is not 100% straight, which mavic says is a no-no, but it's seriously only a hair off center. And the lump may also be caused by the thin layer of tape I put around the nipples to ensure they don't make noise. Perhaps mavic have it dialed and that was not necessary.
 

j-sworks

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#10
Well I've been monitoring the wheels and they are almost at 24hrs of drying time, and while I'm still a little concerned about the rear I will go for a brief - close - to home ride this afternoon to see if I can feel anything odd.
 

Trek DJ

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#11
If its just a hair, I wouldnt bother. It really comes down to technique when putting on the tire and evenly stretching away from the valve hole during installation. If you are worried, just pull the tire off, run another thin layer of glue, and slap it back on and focus on getting that even stretch.

1) how many layer of glue did you use?
2) Can you see a good bond all the way around between the tire/rim? (any chance you can upload a photo?) Deflate the tire before checking the bond.
 

j-sworks

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#12
I used 3 layers two on the rims and one on the tires.

Here are two pictures of the problem area, when checking the bond I can lift the tire from the rim an see the glue starting to pull.
 

Trek DJ

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#14
Nice setup.
I would have used another layer on the tire, but its 'probably' fine.
Its not ideal, but you can use a pick and some glue to shove in that area around the valve. deflate before doing it, then inflate to max for while to get the bond together. I bet if you rode it as is the tire would make a squishy noise as it rolls over that spot with less glue.

That lump isnt from the lack of glue, but again related to really getting that stretch going on when mounting the tire.

Chock this up to a learning experience....which mounting tubies is. You will get better. So shove some glue in there, make sure there is a solid bond around the wheel, and get rolling.
 

j-sworks

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#15
Nice setup.
I would have used another layer on the tire, but its 'probably' fine.
Its not ideal, but you can use a pick and some glue to shove in that area around the valve. deflate before doing it, then inflate to max for while to get the bond together. I bet if you rode it as is the tire would make a squishy noise as it rolls over that spot with less glue.

That lump isnt from the lack of glue, but again related to really getting that stretch going on when mounting the tire.

Chock this up to a learning experience....which mounting tubies is. You will get better. So shove some glue in there, make sure there is a solid bond around the wheel, and get rolling.
Cheers,

I don't find tubular mounting to be the nightmare that people described, but I can attest to it being more involved than popping on a tube and clincher tire. It's not brain surgery but I can tell that takes a few cock-ups to learn the trade.

I will do as you suggest and fix the hole, and then let it sit overnight again. And yes then I can hit the road. So its onto the repair, a session on the trainer, and watching the tour!

Thanks again!
 
Aug 22, 2014
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#16
Curious - how'd the repair work out for you? Were you able to get in many miles of safe riding?

I'm having the same issue mounting Viittoria Corsas (23) on my Bora Ultra Twos. There's a very very minor hop at the valve stem that's only noticeable on the smoothest of terrains. So similar to the pics you've shown but perhaps to a lesser degree. When I shine a flashlight in between the rim and tubular, I can see a 1mm sliver of light come through suggesting there's an area where the tubular is not properly mating the rim. After two more tries re-mounting and stretching around the valve hole as hard and even as I could, I still couldn't get the hop out. But before I set off again on this set up, I want to make sure it won't be susceptible to roll off.

I scoured the internet for hours and this was the only thread that documented the issue well. Thanks for posting.