Am I training correct ?

Dec 7, 2012
63
1
18
Setagaya-Ku, Tokyo
#1
Some facts before the questions
- I have started cycling only couple of months back. Average three ride a week totaling to 100kms max
- about the same time I started dieting to cut belly fat and have lost about 5 kgs, down from 74 to 69
- I am still maintaining a 500 calorie deficit compared to total burn
- I use wahoo fitness heart rate monitor along with my iPhone. I then upload the data to strava. There is quite a big decremency between calorie burn from wahoo vs strava, strava is almost 50% of wahoo and ranges about 500 calorie per hour
- I am mostly in anaerobic heart zone during my cycling averaging at 155-157 boom with peak around 187bpm

Now the questions
- is it wise to go for a big calorie intake the night before the ride to have star fuel ? Talking to joewin on another thread I recon I should keep replenishing about 200 calorie per hour
- is it right to spend about 70-80% of time in anaerobic zone if my target is to build long ride capability ?

I recon I really don't like spinning in light gears, find it more difficult on the knees. Nested I prefer to switch to higher gears with low cadence but this puts more load on the legs and pushes my heart rate up. Is this the right technique for long distance riding or I am not leveraging the gear range properly ?

Lots of question so I appreciate your patience and time in advance!
 

j-sworks

Maximum Pace
Feb 5, 2012
1,199
48
68
Tokyo
#2
Hey,

First I would do a search on TCC as I and others have discussed this at length, so I'm sure you will find some great info and tips.

Then I would strongly recommend buying a training book by a reputable trainer; I was struggling with understanding my training especially as a newer rider, but the training books help a lot.

And I would suggest that Strava is not your best bet for solid training data (it's more like Facebook than Training Peaks or the like), so don't worry too much about the messed up numbers.

Generally I would say that you are over-consuming during your rides, but this does variate per rider, yet based on the info you posted I'd say your better to keep you caloric intake between 120-160 per hour or 30-60 grams of carbs, and this will also change based on your ride intensity, rider fitness, body weight etc.

Finally, distance doesn't matter nearly as much as how you ride it.

Sounds like your off to a great start - keep it up!
 

FarEast

Maximum Pace
May 25, 2009
5,528
538
193
Yokohama
#3
Ok there is a lot of nonsense floating around about eating before events or training.

In a nut shell you basically have to eat a high carb meal within 30 minutes of completing a intensive cardio workout for the body to over compensate and store more carbs (Carb Loading) you also have to do it more than once for the body to store it - it's the same with hydrating - you need to basically have good hydratioon habits 3-4 days prior to an event if you want to be fully hydrated.

Also it's about fueling the body correctly not just the night before but constantly. One of the biggest issues with people is disordered eat (which can lead to eating disorders) a big bowl of pasta the night before an event is pretty much pointless. Eating a high carb diet a week before is going to do wonders for your engery stores and endurance.

So really you want to be looking at your overall diet rather than the night before.
 
Dec 31, 2009
906
87
48
Matsumoto
#4
I was the king of overeating the night before and endurance event. It only made me bloated and that is the last thing you want. Just eat what you normally eat and keep it well balanced. I avoid foods that you "repeat" meaning you taste it twice, like spicy food with onions or peppers. I have a indigestion problems myself, so it may be different for you. If your stomach is busy digesting food, it doesn't have the capacity to fuel your engine properly. If you are riding more than 2 hours, then by all means refuel as often as your body tells you, but under that amount of time, its not necessary as the food will not even be digested and used for fuel during the duration. For rides longer than 2 hours I like to eat oatmeal with a banana and some yogurt pre-ride and refuel with real food like onigiri. Save the gels for racing, if long distance at a steady pace is your goal, real food that is easily digested will be your best bet on the bike, with the gels having a place toward the end of your ride. Consuming a drink that replaces lost minerals is a great idea as well with something like 2 waters to one hypo tonic drink. Things like Pocari Sweat can have allot of sugar and mineral tablets you can put in your water are available, taste great, and are easy to carry. A home made concoction made of water a pinch of salt and lemon juice is great and wont make you feel like a trip to the dentist. Mineral replacement changes in the sweltering Japan summer as well. Gels give you and instant rush and after, a bonk. Not what you want for hours in the saddle. Allot of good news has been linked to beets and endurance, so do your study's on that if you want a natural energizer. In the end try anything because what works for you will be different for others. Also in the winter and otherwise it is said that swishing your fluids around in your mouth sends a message to your brain that fuel is on the way and can have an affect on what your body is telling you. I cant tell you if it actually works but it is also said in the winter it warms the fluid and saves your body from doing this after it is in your stomach, which uses energy. Again, the verdict is out on that, but some sports scientists say it is true. Couldn't hurt, well, unless it is a sugary substance, but we already talked about that.
Good luck
 

Sikochi

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Sep 13, 2010
1,181
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68
Kochi
#5
Your weight loss plan sounds good, but I think there is some confusion with your HR zones. Anaerobic power is depleted after about 90 secs on the bike and takes time to be replenished, so there is no way you can be riding in an anaerobic zone for 70-80% of the time. Likewise, lower cadence/heavier gears should lower, not raise HR, and should be easier, not harder, on the knees.

This is a very good guide for understanding training. It`s written for the power crowd but pretty much covers everything you need to know.
http://velodynamics2.webs.com/rcgtp1.pdf

Remember, that without a powermeter which measures actual work done, calorie counters are a very tenuous indication only.
 

GSAstuto

Maximum Pace
Oct 11, 2009
945
242
103
tokyo
www.roadfixie.com
#7
High cadence equates to lower peak torque on the muslces. Increase torque and you rely on internal muscle energy (anerobic , mainly) and deplete the glycogen stores more rapidly and raise the lactic acid faster. Now then, cycling is rarely a steady state activity (unless you're on rollers or training specifically for a TT type event) so having your body conditioned to work well under both high peak torque and low peak torque modes is beneficial. So , you need to mix up your riding habits (or training, if you call it that) to include both high effort pedaling as well as high cadence pedaling (cardio / VO).

Quite simply - if you want to maximize weight loss then you need to 'turn on' your lipolysis system. You do this by increasing activity to signal the body it needs fuel - and then balance that with the actual fuel you give it - so you don't over feed or over sugar it. Then your body will start pulling fuel from the fat stores.

If you want to increase energy availability for an activity - the process is different. Much different than fueling for weight loss. So don't confuse them. And short activity fueling has different process than long activity. And depending your conditioning, nature of your effort (high peak torque vs low peak torque) all is different, yet again.

At the very simplest - just don't over eat. Everyone eats far too much anyway. Better is to eat less and more often. And stay low on the GI scale. You'll naturally burn more of your visceral fat stores AND start to increase your capability to fuel on the fly. Hydrate often, drinking 4 glasses of water 2x a day is not hydrating. That is 'flushing'. Again, small amounts continuously is the key.

As for 'training' , I think it's better for recreational cyclists to just focus on riding their bike and enjoying it whenever they can. Just get fitted properly so you avoid those related potential causes for injury and get out on the road as much as possible. Naturally you'll increase your speed and distance without any training plan to guide you. Ride with other people. If they are faster, then ride faster. It's really that simple.

All the technical mumbo jumbo and bio-gobbledygook is great for bench racing, engineers and Olympic hopefuls (and of course the marketing folks who really profit from this). But for most cyclists its overkill and a waste of time.

Haha, I really like what FE said about 'disorded eating leading to eating disorders'. I'd never think of using the words in that way - but it's really spot on.
 

FarEast

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May 25, 2009
5,528
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Yokohama
#8
Haha, I really like what FE said about 'disorded eating leading to eating disorders'. I'd never think of using the words in that way - but it's really spot on.
Disordered eating and eating disorders was a huge part of the sports nutrition syllabus, you won’t believe how many amateur and professional athletes have very poor nutrition habits.

Sorry to say this but your Chicken and broccoli diet is way up there on my list of disordered eating habits and fad diets ;)

Studies have actually shown that for athletes many small meals throughout the day offer the best fueling habits for the body while also maintaining a stable body weight through the year.
 

GSAstuto

Maximum Pace
Oct 11, 2009
945
242
103
tokyo
www.roadfixie.com
#9
'Chicken and Broccolli' is a representation of HOW to eat much more than WHAT to eat. And in fact, it's a hella lot better than what most riders come into the system with under the belt (20+ kg and diets mainly of white rice, curry, tonkatsu, McD, etc). The best thing about this kind of 'diet' is that -

1) You almost always cannot overeat lean meats (white meat in particular)
2) Chicken and Poultry is cheap compared to other meat sources and provides super value to young riders who may not enjoy the bottomless budget.
3) Brocolli and other cruciferous veggies are an amazing source of nutrition across the board. And, again, you can't really overeat them (unlike Potatoes, Rice and other veggies which will pack the pounds faster than McD's!)
4) They 'add-in' to other carb rich bases wonderfully - like Chicken Tomatoe Brocolli and Whole Wheat Pasta.
5) It's a 'traditional' Italian Cycling Food. And ranks pretty much at the same status as Nutella.

My point with driving on this is that MOST people eat WAAAYYYYYY too much carbs and fats. And just telling people to eat different is not effective. You need to give them something that is equally as tasty, cheap and easy to prepare. Since we're in Japan where availability of low cost legumes is non-existant, and the rice is generally heavily processed to the point of being nothing but a starch bomb, this remains a pretty good choice.

If you were hooked into the 'inside' scoop of what I usually advise - you'd know that, in fact, the diet recommendation is far more varied and generally includes ALOT of:

1) Other veggies - especially peppers (red, yellow, greens) As we can get the frozen packs cheaply.
2) Kim Chi
3) Museli
4) Genmai
5) Fish

Funny thing is , though, when you're riding hard , you can shovel just about anything into your gut and it will work. Our favorite '3 Day' food consisted pretty much of fruit pies, coke, bananas and peanut butter and Nutella sandwiches. That CAN'T be good! But man, if you're caught eating like that off season or in between - OUCH! It's what and how you BEFORE and AFTER that is important to weight maintenance, recovery, refuelling.

Now I read the diets of alot of nutrionists and see that it mirrors pretty closely how I think and try to eat as well. Alot less carbs and calories and alot more lean meats and veggies.

I'm a bit of an 'age grouper' and since I'm not a big guy with alot of power, I need to carve out my niche in the hills. And this is very simple - lose weight. Every KG I drop is a BIG jump in performance up the hills with no loss in power associated. I KNOW I can go as low as 50-55kg and still keep my lean muscle mass. I'm easily 7-10kg over that now. But in spring I'll be back to about 59-62 KG and then before any significant event (I'll do HR again in August) I'll be at 55kg or less.



Disordered eating and eating disorders was a huge part of the sports nutrition syllabus, you won’t believe how many amateur and professional athletes have very poor nutrition habits.

Sorry to say this but your Chicken and broccoli diet is way up there on my list of disordered eating habits and fad diets ;)

Studies have actually shown that for athletes many small meals throughout the day offer the best fueling habits for the body while also maintaining a stable body weight through the year.
 

jdd

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Jul 26, 2008
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Kanazawa
#10
Not sure if you folks have the Yamaya chain over there, but they have cheap lentils (brown) that are probably my main base for soups**. They also larger dried beans up to garbanzos, and, yuk, canned version of some of the same.

And pre-cooked edamame are almost universal--the deli section in any supermarket.

For the picky, I'm sure there are shops over on the sunny side that offer all kinds of dahls, too. I know exactly where I'd look in Kichijoji.

(**I add chicken/pork to all my soups, and they almost always go over rice, either brown, or near white. << We have our own polisher and when zapped down a little more it cooks faster.)
 

jdd

Maximum Pace
Hardest Crash
Jul 26, 2008
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133
Kanazawa
#12
Yes, no costco here, but with Yamaya you don't have to buy huge quantities. Besides selling liquor, there's pasta, muesli, spices, cheese (sometimes marked down as it nears its 'best by' date), walnuts, oils & balsamic, sun dried tomatoes (in oil or salted), steel cut oatmeal (one local store does have this, the other two don't). And so on.

Quite a bit of junkier things, too, easy to walk past.

If you click on reviews in your second link, even tho it's old, that nails it.

(tokyo real estate being pricier, they may have higher prices there)
 
Dec 7, 2012
63
1
18
Setagaya-Ku, Tokyo
#13
Finished my first 100kms ride

Guys, thanks for all of your inputs. I usually cant respond immediately but I am reading. Working full time Mon to Fri and then taking care of two kids in the weekend .....

OK so I stand corrected, sikochi you are right about the HR zones. I am in aerobic zones 70-80%. That said I still spend considerable time in anaerobic. Check out the link below. It shows the HR analysis breakdown (not sure if it asks you to log on first)

So I did my first 100kms ride yesterday!!.
http://app.strava.com/activities/32571611

Here is the breakdown if strava doesnt allow you to see it
z1 0-112 - 0%
z2 112-148 (Moderate) - 27min43'sec, 11%
z3 148-166 (Tempo) - 2hr17min55 - 53%
z4 166-184 (Threshold) - 1hr35min10sec - 36%
z5 - 185 plus - 0%

My min heart rate is 61 and max is 190 bpm.

Went Tamagawa and just looped back and forth. 4:30 hrs riding plus some 40 mins idle time door to door. First 50 kms were easy. 50-70 required an additional banana. 70-90 required a banana and a coffee but I pretty much fuming out on will power. 90-100 were easy as I knew I accomplished the target and was heading back home.

So what does this tell me
- The bike is setup beautifully. I am amazed by the precision of Y internationals BioRacer measurement and setup. Very stable upper body and the bike as if on rails. No sour knees as I got on my Gios (and ended up in hospital), all I have got to some muscle ache which is expected given the stretch
- If I eat well whole week with the focus on a weekend 100kms I can pull thru the stunt. If not nutirtioned properly or not rested out properly, will power alone will have hard time propelling me from 50 to 100kms
- I say pulled thru the stunt as I am not conditioned to be able to do same distance considerably every weekend or whenever I want to
BUT the positives
- I also know now that this is something do-able and puts a grin on my face :) It also tells me caad 10 and me are a match
- a lot of riders passed me during the ride (i just averaged 23kmph) however I caught up and eventually passed a few of them in the overall run (I dont know how many ks they did).

I guess I will stick to 100kms ride till the point I have enough strength to complete comfortably and then think of bumping further. A Tokyo-Shizuoka ride end of this year seems unlikely at this point.

I will also take my Gios to get it setup by the Ys international, will cost 1000 yen but well worth it I guess.

Apologies for the boast :p but hopefully you guys remember the kick from your first 100k milestone ;)
 

GSAstuto

Maximum Pace
Oct 11, 2009
945
242
103
tokyo
www.roadfixie.com
#14
We have Yamaya - and yes, you can get some decent prices on lentils there. Since I've been studying the Koran and learning more Arabic, my discounts at the local AQ Store have increased.

Not sure if you folks have the Yamaya chain over there, but they have cheap lentils (brown) that are probably my main base for soups**. They also larger dried beans up to garbanzos, and, yuk, canned version of some of the same.

And pre-cooked edamame are almost universal--the deli section in any supermarket.

For the picky, I'm sure there are shops over on the sunny side that offer all kinds of dahls, too. I know exactly where I'd look in Kichijoji.

(**I add chicken/pork to all my soups, and they almost always go over rice, either brown, or near white. << We have our own polisher and when zapped down a little more it cooks faster.)
 

joewein

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Oct 25, 2011
2,440
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133
Setagaya, Tokyo
joewein.net
#15
Went Tamagawa and just looped back and forth. 4:30 hrs riding plus some 40 mins idle time door to door. First 50 kms were easy. 50-70 required an additional banana. 70-90 required a banana and a coffee but I pretty much fuming out on will power. 90-100 were easy as I knew I accomplished the target and was heading back home.
I have no endurance cycling experience but I can say one thing from my yesterdays 100k ride - the bananas I eat during the ride didnt seem to reach my legs quick enough :)
On long distance rides it's recommended to start eating one hour into the ride and to keep consuming. Small amounts more frequently are better than larger amounts at longer intervals.

From your description and Strava log (by time/distance) it sounds like you didn't eat until about two hours into the ride. That is too late. You want to eat *before* you start to fade or get hungry, because it takes time to digest, especially real food. If you're leaving it too late, you'll already be in an energy deficit by then.

Have your first banana after an hour and another (or its equivalent in other foods) half an hour later. Liquid food is also fine, e.g. 500 ml of chocolate milk has 220 kcal. 3 bananas would have given you only about half the minimum calories recommended after the first hour (about 300 kcal vs. 200 kcal/h times 3 1/2 hours).

So, congratulations on your first 100 km ride, but you'll find it easier if you eat sooner and more!

P.S. We're practically neighbours and your Tamagawa route is one of my favourite exercise routes!
 
Dec 7, 2012
63
1
18
Setagaya-Ku, Tokyo
#16
Joewin your ate right. I had a good breakfast and then didn't eat anything for two hours in the ride other then plain water. It was actually difficult to stop for eating while I was feeling strong and was determined to cover as much ground as possible before the stop but I take your point. I will mandate a stop and a quick eat every hour on the next ride

By the way again big discrepancy between wahoo and strava calorie count. Wahoo says I burnt 4795 cal vs strava saying 2353 cal. Interesting the base data was exported from wahoo to strava!
 

GSAstuto

Maximum Pace
Oct 11, 2009
945
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103
tokyo
www.roadfixie.com
#17
100km @23kph -- depending your weight , wind and slope of the road, I'd say the Strava calorie estimate is much more accurate. And unless you're eating fast absorbing supplements, any food you intake will take at least 30min to become effective.
 

j-sworks

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Feb 5, 2012
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Tokyo
#18
100km @23kph -- depending your weight , wind and slope of the road, I'd say the Strava calorie estimate is much more accurate. And unless you're eating fast absorbing supplements, any food you intake will take at least 30min to become effective.
Your correct I'd say; wahoo is overestimating by about 50%.

Also the 30 minute absorption rate is the issue when not eating easily digested foods that get right to the point --> fitness foods or carefully selected on-the-bike real foods.
 

j-sworks

Maximum Pace
Feb 5, 2012
1,199
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68
Tokyo
#19
Joewin your ate right. I had a good breakfast and then didn't eat anything for two hours in the ride other then plain water. It was actually difficult to stop for eating while I was feeling strong and was determined to cover as much ground as possible before the stop but I take your point. I will mandate a stop and a quick eat every hour on the next ride

By the way again big discrepancy between wahoo and strava calorie count. Wahoo says I burnt 4795 cal vs strava saying 2353 cal. Interesting the base data was exported from wahoo to strava!
Waiting two hours to eat is too long.

"Eat a little and eat often" (same with hydration; small sips here and there)

Try not to let the excitement rule your rides. It's common for newbies (still happens to pro riders ha!). If you develop good nutrition and hydration habits early then you will avoid some unpleasant situations, and it takes discipline to eat and drink properly given all the different variants (weather, feeling, pace, race, catch-up, too hot, to cold, having to pee really bad; the list is almost endless.
 

Sikochi

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Sep 13, 2010
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Kochi
#20
I`m still not convinced the HR zones are accurate - it`s very unlikely you spent zero time in z1, but as per my previous post, the article I linked to covers most of what you need to know.

Joewin your ate right. I had a good breakfast and then didn't eat anything for two hours in the ride other then plain water. It was actually difficult to stop for eating while I was feeling strong and was determined to cover as much ground as possible before the stop but I take your point.
You don`t have to stop to eat! I have a tri bag on my top tube, and just take something out when I want to eat. With training, you should be able to eat during anything except VO2 level work upwards. I got caught out in the summer, as just started eating when the 10%+ section started, but if you are used to it, it is manageable. The only hard thing about trying to eat when moving, is opening the soyjoys. You can always mix in something with the water to provide energy: I just use orange juice.