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About light body or muscle bruise/injury

Ratchet21

Speeding Up
Sep 7, 2020
110
82
Hi all!

Would like to ask how do everyone handle their body injury from cycling? Recently I start to have sore shoulder and feel slight pain when I lift my right hand upwards while bending my elbow, I suspect that is either my bad posture during cycling or a light injury I got when I fell down the bike few weeks ago.

Normally in Singapore or other place in south east Asia, people that get wounds from sport (Karate, Judo, or other similar accidents) will go to Chinese/Asian physician where they will bend, pull and do some sorta therapy thing to your muscle to make you recover (and scream) faster, I wonder if there is such thing in Japan too and how do everyone get treatment or cope with light injury?

Thanks in advance!
 

Thien Che

Cruising
Sep 14, 2020
32
39
I studied biomechanics as a pre-med in uni and used to do quite a bit of BJJ before Covid happened, so I might be able to share some insights here regarding joint pain haha. What you'll commonly hear is that physicians and trainers will ask you to distinguish between muscle soreness/bodily fatigue vs. joint pain (i.e. of ligaments and tendons, or bone injury).

If you have shoulder pain, then it may very well be bad posture causing some mild tendinitis (via strain on the tendons/ligaments by placing them in orientations that they aren't normally in or not good at holding during strenuous physical exertion). For complex joints like your shoulder, what's recommended is RICE (Rest, Ice, Compression, Elevation) until there's no more pain at all.

This can be really applied to any joint injury that isn't so severe that you think you tore a tendon/ligament completely (which you'll know b/c there will be severe bruising, swelling, and the joint won't feel stable). The severe bruising and swelling will also usually be present in case of fractures or chipped bones during falls. In either of these cases, you'll have to go to a doctor and get an X-ray or MRI/CT scan.

In the case of bad posture, what you could do is look up bike fit guides online to isolate what part of your posture might be causing your pain:
  1. Handlebar width? Might influence how you grip, rotation of your wrist/elbow, and thus stress on shoulder
  2. Reach/stack?
  3. Overtraining? Did you go on a really long or hard ride?
What I would do is make your bike fit as best you can and go on sweet spot rides for 30min-1hr at a time. Keep "good" posture and see if anything changes and then keep tweaking your bike fit. Worst case you could do a professional fit after saving up some cash.

In any case, joint pain is never a case of lack of training. Just don't be too quick to diagnose yourself without a second opinion :)

EDIT: not sure if relevant to your particular ailment, but
 
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Ratchet21

Speeding Up
Sep 7, 2020
110
82
I studied biomechanics as a pre-med in uni and used to do quite a bit of BJJ before Covid happened, so I might be able to share some insights here regarding joint pain haha. What you'll commonly hear is that physicians and trainers will ask you to distinguish between muscle soreness/bodily fatigue vs. joint pain (i.e. of ligaments and tendons, or bone injury).

If you have shoulder pain, then it may very well be bad posture causing some mild tendinitis (via strain on the tendons/ligaments by placing them in orientations that they aren't normally in or not good at holding during strenuous physical exertion). For complex joints like your shoulder, what's recommended is RICE (Rest, Ice, Compression, Elevation) until there's no more pain at all.

This can be really applied to any joint injury that isn't so severe that you think you tore a tendon/ligament completely (which you'll know b/c there will be severe bruising, swelling, and the joint won't feel stable). The severe bruising and swelling will also usually be present in case of fractures or chipped bones during falls. In either of these cases, you'll have to go to a doctor and get an X-ray or MRI/CT scan.

In the case of bad posture, what you could do is look up bike fit guides online to isolate what part of your posture might be causing your pain:
  1. Handlebar width? Might influence how you grip, rotation of your wrist/elbow, and thus stress on shoulder
  2. Reach/stack?
  3. Overtraining? Did you go on a really long or hard ride?
What I would do is make your bike fit as best you can and go on sweet spot rides for 30min-1hr at a time. Keep "good" posture and see if anything changes and then keep tweaking your bike fit. Worst case you could do a professional fit after saving up some cash.

In any case, joint pain is never a case of lack of training. Just don't be too quick to diagnose yourself without a second opinion :)

EDIT: not sure if relevant to your particular ailment, but

Thien!! Are you a superman?
Sorry I took some time to reply as I am trying out some stuff you mentioned above. My initial suspicion was that it might be because of my stiff posture that applied too much pressure on my left and right shoulder when I ride, so I tried to relax my posture more by bending my arm and go just a little lower (Aero?), and I can feel that took off quite an amount of stress from my shoulder so I'm keen to explore further about this, not sure if adding stem length can help more with this too since it will allow me to go lower more without bending my back too high.

2nd thing I realized is that my past few long rides with half-fast, I always carried a sling bag for my belongings. So that might have stressed my right shoulder more and aggravated the situation. So I'm looking at getting my saddle bag asap and + the pockets at my jerseys I should be able to stop using the sling bag in the future.

I will continue to monitor the situation as I try with more riding position and situation, thanks again for your kind advise!
 

Thien Che

Cruising
Sep 14, 2020
32
39
No worries! For sure relaxing your posture will help relieve tension in those areas.

I would avoid "planking" on the handlebars with tight grips and locked elbows, but rather keep your elbows/forearms flat to the ground and grips loose (e.g. in golf and baseball, they ask beginners to pretend as though they were gripping a small bird. Tight enough to keep it from flying away, but not so tight as to hurt it). If you lock your arms and lean on the bars too heavily, all of those road vibrations will transfer directly up your arms into your shoulders and neck. Muscles (especially small muscles in the neck and connecting to the shoulder) are not great at stablizing your head against random vibrations for very long.

In order to be able to have a loose upper body in terms of grips, arms, and shoulders/neck area, you'll need to have enough control to use your core muscles to stablize your upper body/head. This gets progressively harder the more stretched out you are (if you increase stem length, for example). If you're getting aero by simply tucking and don't feel too stretched out nor bunched up, then ignore my comment.
 
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joewein

Maximum Pace
Oct 25, 2011
2,924
2,107
2nd thing I realized is that my past few long rides with half-fast, I always carried a sling bag for my belongings. So that might have stressed my right shoulder more and aggravated the situation.

Even off the bike I avoid carrying stuff on one shoulder because of what it does to your posture. It's poison if you have back issues. A backpack with two shoulder straps is much easier to carry.

I do use a backpack on shopping rides.

For bike rides with a wide range of temperatures or where I may need rain gear for part of the ride, I sometimes carry a light drawstring backpack so I can carry my rain gear when I don't need it. I never carry a proper backpack on long rides where you just end up with a sweaty back and itchy shoulders. Significant weight is best carried on the bike, not the body.
 

OreoCookie

Maximum Pace
Dec 2, 2017
1,400
1,138
Would like to ask how do everyone handle their body injury from cycling? Recently I start to have sore shoulder and feel slight pain when I lift my right hand upwards while bending my elbow, I suspect that is either my bad posture during cycling or a light injury I got when I fell down the bike few weeks ago.
I'd start looking into two aspects, overuse and bad bike fit. Overuse means you are doing something that you are not yet used to and for longer than you are used to. So you are lacking the musculature to accommodate that. A bad bike fit typically exaggerates such issues. That's why IMHO people should have even a basic bike fit and not try to do it themselves.

You can do a few core strength exercises to improve the musculature. This will not just help you for cycling, but also in daily life.
 

Ratchet21

Speeding Up
Sep 7, 2020
110
82
I'd start looking into two aspects, overuse and bad bike fit. Overuse means you are doing something that you are not yet used to and for longer than you are used to. So you are lacking the musculature to accommodate that. A bad bike fit typically exaggerates such issues. That's why IMHO people should have even a basic bike fit and not try to do it themselves.

You can do a few core strength exercises to improve the musculature. This will not just help you for cycling, but also in daily life.

I see, I suspect its more towards the overuse factor and my over stiff grip on the hood/handlebar when I'm cycling, I'm gonna try to be more soft on my grip and apply less pressure on my arm/shoulder during the ride for now and see how it goes!

Any core strength exercise that you will suggest other than squatting and general leg lifting on floor movement?

As for bike fit, I have went for many shops for basic bike fit (including Specialized shop and LBS that used mock bicycle for fitting) and majority recommends me to get 54, which is the size I'm using now. I feel good in 54 although I am tempted to try 52 too to see if it will suit me better. But if you mean bike fit to a further details like crank length, stem length, handlebar width, body posture, etc then yes, I have yet to get such fitting on me.
 

Thien Che

Cruising
Sep 14, 2020
32
39
Any core strength exercise that you will suggest other than squatting and general leg lifting on floor movement?
Here there's plenty of calisthenics and yoga programs that you could find online (r/bodyweightfitness on reddit is an amazing resource)

I'd recommend finding a set of exercises that work best for you and that you find fun enough to stick to 1-2x a week. For shoulders and core, planks, push-ups, pull-ups, and resistance band exercises are great. If you can, focus on compound movements that utilize multiple muscle groups. I'd even consider investing in a small to medium size kettle bell for maximum versatility. This is all assuming you're working out at home and not in a facility, due to covid.

As for bike fit, I have went for many shops for basic bike fit (including Specialized shop and LBS that used mock bicycle for fitting) and majority recommends me to get 54, which is the size I'm using now. I feel good in 54 although I am tempted to try 52 too to see if it will suit me better.
Unfortunately, professional bike fits are not all created equal. You'll often get many different opinions, and my experience is that fancy tech does not always equal quality advice. Bike fitting is largely based on average observations within a population, and not always grounded in robust principles and methodology. To some extent, sport science tends not to be very rigorous and actionable (i.e. sure, we can see how a set of average bike dimensions fit to a set of ranges of peoples' physical dimensions, and when we change something we can see what typically happens to their bodies and performance output. We may even loosely relate it to human anatomy and make some assumptions about how this translates to the average riding experience. However, how do we know where you specifically fit into the population in all of these perspectives? What about your own personal perception?) as hard science. Even in something as rigorous as clinical medicine, we've been seeing a industry movement called narrative-based medicine where doctors prioritize their patients' personal feelings despite what the data says empirically should work for their particular ailment!

Example:
If you feel good and you're performing well on the road, that trumps any advice. If you need advice to fix pain or performance issues, then you'll really need to understand the process that's used in your fitting, what that really means for you rather than just jargon, equipment, measurements and joint angles, and where you might fit into that population.
Obviously, there will are clear bad beginner practices that you should stay away from, but these will be quickly obvious to you, especially with some trial and error. Unfortunately, this implies frequent experimenting and understanding that your body and perception will also change quickly in ways you can't predict. What you'll need to determine is how much time, money, and energy you want to devote to fit and what your goals are. It's mostly a personal journey despite any single individual's advice for you.
 

Ratchet21

Speeding Up
Sep 7, 2020
110
82
Here there's plenty of calisthenics and yoga programs that you could find online (r/bodyweightfitness on reddit is an amazing resource)

I'd recommend finding a set of exercises that work best for you and that you find fun enough to stick to 1-2x a week. For shoulders and core, planks, push-ups, pull-ups, and resistance band exercises are great. If you can, focus on compound movements that utilize multiple muscle groups. I'd even consider investing in a small to medium size kettle bell for maximum versatility. This is all assuming you're working out at home and not in a facility, due to covid.


Unfortunately, professional bike fits are not all created equal. You'll often get many different opinions, and my experience is that fancy tech does not always equal quality advice. Bike fitting is largely based on average observations within a population, and not always grounded in robust principles and methodology. To some extent, sport science tends not to be very rigorous and actionable (i.e. sure, we can see how a set of average bike dimensions fit to a set of ranges of peoples' physical dimensions, and when we change something we can see what typically happens to their bodies and performance output. We may even loosely relate it to human anatomy and make some assumptions about how this translates to the average riding experience. However, how do we know where you specifically fit into the population in all of these perspectives? What about your own personal perception?) as hard science. Even in something as rigorous as clinical medicine, we've been seeing a industry movement called narrative-based medicine where doctors prioritize their patients' personal feelings despite what the data says empirically should work for their particular ailment!

Example:
If you feel good and you're performing well on the road, that trumps any advice. If you need advice to fix pain or performance issues, then you'll really need to understand the process that's used in your fitting, what that really means for you rather than just jargon, equipment, measurements and joint angles, and where you might fit into that population.
Obviously, there will are clear bad beginner practices that you should stay away from, but these will be quickly obvious to you, especially with some trial and error. Unfortunately, this implies frequent experimenting and understanding that your body and perception will also change quickly in ways you can't predict. What you'll need to determine is how much time, money, and energy you want to devote to fit and what your goals are. It's mostly a personal journey despite any single individual's advice for you.

Thanks Thien, great advice and as informative as ever!
I'll get to the core exercise once my shoulder gets better as I want to avoid hurting it further for now.
As about bike fit/size, I am actually planning to rent a 52 bike next week to try it out too for a day too. Maybe with that I can learn more about my own body and better bike fit through the obvious difference.
 

OreoCookie

Maximum Pace
Dec 2, 2017
1,400
1,138
Any core strength exercise that you will suggest other than squatting and general leg lifting on floor movement?
Have a look at the video linked in this page.
Squats will not increase core strength, unless you are doing things like pistol squats.
As for bike fit, I have went for many shops for basic bike fit (including Specialized shop and LBS that used mock bicycle for fitting) and majority recommends me to get 54, which is the size I'm using now. I feel good in 54 although I am tempted to try 52 too to see if it will suit me better. But if you mean bike fit to a further details like crank length, stem length, handlebar width, body posture, etc then yes, I have yet to get such fitting on me.
I think you misunderstand what I mean by bike fit. A bike fit is where you take your bike, and the people in the shop will adjust saddle height, saddle position, perhaps exchange your stem and so forth so that your bike fits your body. Especially if you are between sizes — and most people are — you e. g. might need a shorter stem on a larger frame or vice versa.
 

MattRyuu

Maximum Pace
Apr 23, 2019
307
288
Big 2nd for the yoga. I did 3 years of hot yoga everyday before moving to Japan. Still manage to do hip flexor, lower back/core, hammy and some shoulder stretching daily to keep things loose. Highly recommend the first 4 postures in the Bikram sequence for that. You can find tutorials on YouTube.
 

Ratchet21

Speeding Up
Sep 7, 2020
110
82
Thanks for the inputs everyone! After few weeks of taking it easy and trying different thing I find that relaxing the pressure at my grip and bending my arms reduced the pain immensely and also keeps me cycling for longer before the sore starts to kick in. Also now I find that riding with body bent forward is much comfortable and lifting the butt and relaxing the body during rough ride helps reducing the stress on shoulder and upper arm too.

After doing the above and going for few session with the sports chiropractor/massage center I am feeling much better and I can lift my right arm high and elbow over my head again. (Even though some little pain still exist)

I also finally went to rent a bike 1 size below my current bike to try out, it is both same brand but different model so I am aware that the geometry is slightly different. But I found out that riding on 52 instead of 54 gives me much more control over the bike, I feel easier and have much more confident over the handling and turning, for once I feel so much in control while riding a road bike. My current one made me feel I have to fight with it for control sometimes.

I had a chat with the shop staff and he told me unless I go for a professional fit it will be hard to advice, but off his observation he suggest me to change the width of my handlebar from 420 to 400 or even 380 and that will help relieve the pressure from my shoulder and upper arm immediately as the current one is too wide for me it will definitely stress my body more.

I'm pretty convinced about changing handlebar, but I am now more interested to find out can I get the same effect of riding a 52 (better handling and control and less strain on body) just by changing my handlebar and maybe stem on my 54. I should be going to LBS and ask them for a 40 minutes fitting session and see what they say about it. Will update here again about it!
 

OreoCookie

Maximum Pace
Dec 2, 2017
1,400
1,138
I also finally went to rent a bike 1 size below my current bike to try out, it is both same brand but different model so I am aware that the geometry is slightly different. But I found out that riding on 52 instead of 54 gives me much more control over the bike, I feel easier and have much more confident over the handling and turning, for once I feel so much in control while riding a road bike. My current one made me feel I have to fight with it for control sometimes.
I would be very careful reaching this conclusion: it is true that bike size has an effect on handling, but unless your rental was the same model and make and model year, the differences can be easily attributable to a bike with a geometry that you like better. Generally speaking, endurance bikes have a longer wheelbase and a slacker head angle (that's the angle the fork makes relative to a straight vertical line), bikes with more aggressive geometry tend to have a shorter wheel base and a steeper head angle. What you prefer depends on your personal taste.
I had a chat with the shop staff and he told me unless I go for a professional fit it will be hard to advice, […]
Seconded.
[…] but off his observation he suggest me to change the width of my handlebar from 420 to 400 or even 380 and that will help relieve the pressure from my shoulder and upper arm immediately as the current one is too wide for me it will definitely stress my body more.
AFAIK the default recommendation is to go by shoulder width, but you can deviate from that. Wider handle bars will give you more control and your bike will feel less twitchy (and thus, less lively). Narrower handle bars make you more aero and make your bike feel more lively. You can compensate for the added length with a shorter stem. So if I were you, I'd ask them to try your current handlebar with a shorter stem. If you are between sizes, I reckon you might want a shorter stem anyway. Note that a shorter stem also changes how the bike feels when you turn. However, while handlebars can be too narrow, it is much harder for them to be too wide (provided the stem has been changed to take handlebar width and fit into account). Gravel drop bars, for example, tend to be a few cm wider (e. g. 44 cm rather than 40 cm), and wider still if you get some with a decent amount of flare.

Another thing about handlebars: be sure to try different shapes. I've had to change handlebars simply because I didn't like the shape of the previous one. Plus, the new one is much stiffer, which is an added bonus.
I'm pretty convinced about changing handlebar, but I am now more interested to find out can I get the same effect of riding a 52 (better handling and control and less strain on body) just by changing my handlebar and maybe stem on my 54. I should be going to LBS and ask them for a 40 minutes fitting session and see what they say about it. Will update here again about it!
You should definitely do that. If you are between sizes, which seems to be the case, then there should be a way to make your bike fit. Getting the frame geometry and the fit right is really, really important for how you feel on the bike and you much enjoyment you get out of it.
 
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Ratchet21

Speeding Up
Sep 7, 2020
110
82
I would be very careful reaching this conclusion: it is true that bike size has an effect on handling, but unless your rental was the same model and make and model year, the differences can be easily attributable to a bike with a geometry that you like better. Generally speaking, endurance bikes have a longer wheelbase and a slacker head angle (that's the angle the fork makes relative to a straight vertical line), bikes with more aggressive geometry tend to have a shorter wheel base and a steeper head angle. What you prefer depends on your personal taste.

Yes, I am paying attention to that too, so far in the geometry comparison it does not differ far especially after specialized changed Allez's geometry to be more endurance since their 2019 model (Which is the one I have). I don't think it will be exact same but it did give me a little better idea!

Seconded.

That being said he told me to come back after I know how to use clip pedal/cleat, because doing professional fit using flat pedal will not be really accurate according to him haha

AFAIK the default recommendation is to go by shoulder width, but you can deviate from that. Wider handle bars will give you more control and your bike will feel less twitchy (and thus, less lively). Narrower handle bars make you more aero and make your bike feel more lively. You can compensate for the added length with a shorter stem. So if I were you, I'd ask them to try your current handlebar with a shorter stem. If you are between sizes, I reckon you might want a shorter stem anyway. Note that a shorter stem also changes how the bike feels when you turn. However, while handlebars can be too narrow, it is much harder for them to be too wide (provided the stem has been changed to take handlebar width and fit into account). Gravel drop bars, for example, tend to be a few cm wider (e. g. 44 cm rather than 40 cm), and wider still if you get some with a decent amount of flare.

Another thing about handlebars: be sure to try different shapes. I've had to change handlebars simply because I didn't like the shape of the previous one. Plus, the new one is much stiffer, which is an added bonus.

The current 420mm is visibly wider than my shoulder width and when I was riding the size 52 I felt much less stress on my upper arm and shoulder and i think mainly is because of the handlebar being 400mm, but admittedly I don't know how much will the stem's 10mm difference affect my shoulder since its shorter at 52. 52 Roubaix's stem is 10mm shorter and the reach is 12mm shorter too, so i guess that is 22mm difference from my 54 Allez, there is a lot of other factor to consider like geometry but I will keep this in mind and ask the fitting guy this Thursday when I'm there for the fitting.

I'm not really sure about what is the meaning of "control" and "lively" here, but when I was using the 52 it felt it is much easier to do sharp turn and maneuver around so that sounds like more control and lively to me, when im on the 54 i always feels like im wrestling for control with the bike and have problem doing sharper turn.

You should definitely do that. If you are between sizes, which seems to be the case, then there should be a way to make your bike fit. Getting the frame geometry and the fit right is really, really important for how you feel on the bike and you much enjoyment you get out of it.

I really liked the 52 Roubaix because it was so easy to turn and i noticed my handling and control is so much better, if the change to my stem and handlebar can solve that I will be very very happy. I just hope it will solve the problem because I got the bike 2nd hand at a really cheap and changing stem, handlebar and the service fee will cost me like 20-30% of the price of this bike, that do get me thinking why don't I just get a 52 Roubaix outright in case the riding experience was from the whole bike sizing and geometry and less of the handlebar width and stem.

And thank you for your inputs!
 

OreoCookie

Maximum Pace
Dec 2, 2017
1,400
1,138
The current 420mm is visibly wider than my shoulder width and when I was riding the size 52 I felt much less stress on my upper arm and shoulder and i think mainly is because of the handlebar being 400mm, but admittedly I don't know how much will the stem's 10mm difference affect my shoulder since its shorter at 52.

52 Roubaix's stem is 10mm shorter and the reach is 12mm shorter too, so i guess that is 22mm difference from my 54 Allez, there is a lot of other factor to consider like geometry but I will keep this in mind and ask the fitting guy this Thursday when I'm there for the fitting.
That's why I wrote you should be careful in how you interpret these things. Bars that are wider than your shoulder are not a problem if fitted correctly. In this case you have a 20 mm longer frame, a 10 mm longer stem and a 20 mm wider handlebar. That all adds up — not necessarily to 50 mm as everything is in three dimensions, but still.

And all of this is independent of your preference for handlebar width. So for example, you might need a 10 mm longer stem with a 20 mm wider handlebar to compensate for the extra width. But also plenty of other things play a role, including handlebar shape, lever position and the like. So I would not say a 420 mm handlebar is too wide, because it is wider than your shoulders. Mountain bikes have handlebars that are easily over 750 mm wide, so definitely wider than your shoulders, and they can be made to fit perfectly, too.

In short, I'm just saying you should be cognizant of the difference of “a smaller frame with a narrower handlebar fits me better“ and “I prefer narrower handlebars”.
I'm not really sure about what is the meaning of "control" and "lively" here, but when I was using the 52 it felt it is much easier to do sharp turn and maneuver around so that sounds like more control and lively to me, when im on the 54 i always feels like im wrestling for control with the bike and have problem doing sharper turn.
There are plenty of variables here, including e. g. stem length, handlebar width and the like. But if the bike-stem-handlebar combo is “too long”, then this is definitely a factor.
I just hope it will solve the problem because I got the bike 2nd hand at a really cheap and changing stem, handlebar and the service fee will cost me like 20-30% of the price of this bike, that do get me thinking why don't I just get a 52 Roubaix outright in case the riding experience was from the whole bike sizing and geometry and less of the handlebar width and stem.
Why don't you tell that to the person fitting you? I am sure they'd be much happier to fit someone who is a potential customer for a new bike than someone who bought a bike “in the wrong size online” and now comes to them for help. It seems frame size is a major issue, so I think you should get that sorted first.

However, as a general rule, you should expect to change stem length and the like when you buy a bike. Usually when you buy a new bike most bike shops will change those parts free of charge. So that's something to consider. But the touch points (handlebars, bar tape, saddle and pedals) are usually a matter of personal preference. And I wouldn't judge the quality of a bike by e. g. how you like the saddle. This is money that is well-invested.
 
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Ratchet21

Speeding Up
Sep 7, 2020
110
82
I just went to get a bike fit done yesterday so thought I will share my experience here.
The staff hooked my bike into one of their machine after measuring it and then asked me to ride on it while he did some adjustment on it, and while he is on that he also give me pointers on how to fix my riding posture.

Overall he reduced my stem height by 20mm, adjusted the handlebar angle downward a little, moved my saddle forward by 10mm and apparently the main culprit to my upper arm and shoulder pain is how I grip the hood on the handlebar. After I followed his instruction on how to ride with correct arm and body posture I feel much better as I don't feel the stress at my arm/shoulder during the bike fit but I was busy yesterday so I didn't ride much to test it further on the road.

Today I went to ride around 50km at tamagawa and I'm happy to say I don't have any sore arm/shoulder so far! Hopefully it won't be too when I wake up tomorrow. Just wanted to share this with everyone as it is thanks to everyone's input that I was able to narrow down the possible problem and am able to fix it (Hopefully!).

Hope to enjoy cycling more without pain from now on! Have a great weekend everyone!
 
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